vindication worth it

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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Chicken » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:41 am

Veilan wrote:From all this speculation I deduct vindication is going to work on bosses in the future?
Yes, unlike the current live version the new AP debuff version works on everything*.

*Perhaps barring something immune to magic, but I doubt we'll see anything like that ever again.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:38 am

So, short answer to the original question -

If you can afford to not take one of the following:

1. Imp BoM
2. HotC
3. Swift Ret
4. Sanctified Ret
5. Divine Sacrifice
... then Vindication is worth it. So, what that means is, if you have a 100% attendance raid member who is a...

1. Holy paladin with Imp BoM
2. Elemental shaman
3. Moonkin
4. BM hunter
... then fit Vindication in and drop a corresponding talent.

Or, drop Divine Sacrifice and make the healers heal harder.

Did I get that right (from a retribution stand-point)?
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Chicken » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:47 am

Alternatively you can also sacrifice a point from Seal of Command and a single point from Pursuit of Justice (Which will give you 8% movement speed increase, equivalent to a boot enchant), and pick up Vindication, all the various other raid buff talents, and Divine Sacrifice.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZVGzZVfrxoIuhdIfsu

That'll probably the Ret build I'm going for, Seal of Command is actually currently weaker on the PTR than Seal of Righteousness is, so isn't worth picking it up, and while I'm not too happy about losing 7% movement speed, I can live with that. The points I used to get farther in prot can obviously be swapped to Divinity if preferred.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:56 am

Chicken wrote:Alternatively you can also sacrifice a point from Seal of Command and a single point from Pursuit of Justice (Which will give you 8% movement speed increase, equivalent to a boot enchant), and pick up Vindication, all the various other raid buff talents, and Divine Sacrifice.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZVGzZVfrxoIuhdIfsu

That'll probably the Ret build I'm going for, Seal of Command is actually currently weaker on the PTR than Seal of Righteousness is, so isn't worth picking it up, and while I'm not too happy about losing 7% movement speed, I can live with that. The points I used to get farther in prot can obviously be swapped to Divinity if preferred.

I regard Pursuit of Justice as vital to my survival. I'm a slow, dumb-witted ret CATHMOR SMASH paladin, I need that extra play with reaction time in order not to get gibbed by PBAoE's (Mimiron Shock Blast, for example) and to get into combat quicker. I personally don't see Pursuit of Justice as one of those optional talents - mobility is key for me.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Chicken » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:18 pm

It was meant more as an alternate option in case your raid really has none of the options listed.

Coincidentally as it so happens, my raid very often doesn't, so I'd rather skip just the single point in Pursuit of Justice. Either way, you got it right, though assassination rogues are also (potentially) a source of "Heart of the Crusader".
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:35 pm

Chicken wrote:It was meant more as an alternate option in case your raid really has none of the options listed.

Coincidentally as it so happens, my raid very often doesn't, so I'd rather skip just the single point in Pursuit of Justice. Either way, you got it right, though assassination rogues are also (potentially) a source of "Heart of the Crusader".


So you had none of that and no Warrior(any spec)/Prot Pally either? Yeah, in that case I could see doing that, but tbh if I was forced to take 2/2 Vindication and all the other utility I'd probably drop to 4/5 SotP before 1/2 PoJ as DPS.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Dread » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:26 am

Dorvan wrote:So you had none of that and no Warrior(any spec)/Prot Pally either? Yeah, in that case I could see doing that, but tbh if I was forced to take 2/2 Vindication and all the other utility I'd probably drop to 4/5 SotP before 1/2 PoJ as DPS.


I can see the argument in this with SotP not affecting the 5 stack SoV bonus. Of course, this is assuming you insist on maxing Vindication in a Ret build while maintaining all of your other raid buffs. I haven't yet decided how I will approach this in my Ret build.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Veilan » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:24 pm

Baelor wrote:I personally don't see Pursuit of Justice as one of those optional talents - mobility is key for me.


Though I guess it's off topic, I completely agree. If higher movement speed is available for a melee DD, it's a must have. Apart from all the fun and utility, the increase in DPS in most fights is not inconsiderable.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Ascendant » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:58 pm

having your ret paladin take this talent instead of you seems to be the best way to go for me. I can't think of a situation that can't be covered by his vind and a warlocks curse of weakness. If your raid doesn't have a ret paladin, get one. My guild last ours recently and I have had to re-spec as temporary fill-in.

when I go back, I might even lose pursuit of justice depending on the design of boss encounters, but that's not too likely.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Braundo » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:12 am

In light of the new math for 3.2, it's looking like it will be harder to get deep into Ret without giving up some very important threat talents in the other trees. Assuming that there are no other sources of the AP debuff (just speaking hypothetically here), how major of a mitigation boost is Vindication compared to, say, JotJ? Should it be considered mandatory in the way that JotJ is, or just simply "good"?

It's looking like it will be very easy to get the base 6 points in Ret in pretty much any tanking build, but it's harder to justify the three points in HotC just to get down to Vindication/PoJ when there are so many other solid threat/utility talents available in the other trees.

At this moment, the best threat/survivability combo I can come up with without Vindication is this (those two points in Divinity really seem to have nowhere better to go):
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZi0xAMugGsIufdxo

Whereas with Vindication, I might get something like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZV0xA0uGGsIufdxfM

(Assuming 2/2 SA for Vezax, as well as assuming that DS/DG ends up nerfed in 3.2 in both examples)

Thoughts?
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Jasari » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:31 am

Well I think it's important to understand that the only reason SotP is so attractive now is because it essentially got buffed, not because the rest of our DPS/TPS talents got nerfed. If you were having serious threat problems, maybe this change can offer you a solution, but I know for me, and probably most other people on these boards, we would gladly take one of the best mitigation talents in the game over a slight threat boost.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Braundo » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:45 am

Jasari wrote: of the best mitigation talents in the game

So, by this, you are saying that Vindication should be considered as mandatory as JotJ?

If that is the consensus, then that makes my decision quite a bit easier.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby serrasin » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:35 pm

Vindication is an auto-include for me. Now I just need to figure out how to get 3/3 crusade and the new SotP =x


Edit:

I may be going with the following if math and logs show that SotP is a net increase over Crusade.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#smZV0tAMuMusIufdxfM0b
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Argali » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:44 pm

It's easy to get all if you're ret!
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Gamingdevil » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:49 am

serrasin wrote:Vindication is an auto-include for me. Now I just need to figure out how to get 3/3 crusade and the new SotP =x


Edit:

I may be going with the following if math and logs show that SotP is a net increase over Crusade.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#smZV0tAMuMusIufdxfM0b


It does, theck did it in the matlab thread. However, he assumed that Crusade only gave a 3% bonus. So if you're in an area where you get the full 6% it jumps slightly ahead again.
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