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Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby SellassieTanks » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:14 am

Easy to see the Math does not make up for it,

But application suggests that it works quite nicely when a 20% decrease in damage is needed. A drop in threat occurs, but nothing like w/o AW up, and not enough to dip to second...We have some locks and a war who are redunkulous on TPS as well.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby majiben » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:26 am

What are you talking about? If you weren't in any danger of dropping below top threat with AW use, you would be fine without it unless it was by an extremely small margin in which case it could hardly be called without danger. Additionally it is okay to drop to second place or even lower as long as you don't lose threat which is quite a bit less of a danger with ranged dps.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby SellassieTanks » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:07 am

What am I talking about? Just because something isnt life shattering doesnt make it useless or ineffective. (look they let you moderate despite it's limited benefit to the cyan hating community) 20% increase to damage is an increase to the threat while active. So, a difference is a difference (no matter how much Mr. cyan would like to argue) a 10stam difference is only 10stam, but still a difference much like a 20% increase (or any) is still an increase, and helps make HoSalv usable in situations where it would otherwise not be). You seem to be a min/maxer until you feel like arguing or cutting something/one down who is min maxing. An improvement in performance is an improvement in performance, no matter how small. Your Epeen has never impressed me, and If I was in fact (not personal opinion of an epeen monster) completely wrong, just go ahead and Cyan it so I can make sure to stay clear of it like I do all of your other 'insert authority" posts.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Corpsicle » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:32 am

The thing is, when you use Hand of Salvation at the start of the fight you are losing a percentage of your current threat generation - but since you don't have a lot of total threat built up you don't lose that much. Combining Hand of Salve in this case with Wings will make the lost threat appear to be less of an issue.

When you have 1,000,000 threat total, then you lose 20% of the 1,000,000 threat - a loss of 200,000 threat that will end with you at 800,000 threat if you do no other threat generation during that time. Assuming that you are generating 7000 tps, then you should generate 70,000 threat during the time Hand of Salvation is active. Taking that into account, you go from 1,000,000 threat to 870,000 threat 10 seconds later.

Popping wings will mitigate the loss of threat some but depending on how much total threat you have when using Hand of Salve, it will not counter the total loss of threat. I would certinately not rely on wings to keep you above the dps on threat if you have a high total threat and if you have dps above or almost exactly even with you on the threat meters. You have to judge whether your 20% less threat will be higher than 130% of the threat your top dps will be sitting at 10 seconds AFTER you use Hand of Salvation. Consider that while you are in fact going to be generating negative TPS, your dps will not.
Last edited by Corpsicle on Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby majiben » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:34 am

SellassieTanks wrote:What am I talking about? Just because something isnt life shattering doesnt make it useless or ineffective. (Snip) 20% increase to damage is an increase to the threat while active. So, a difference is a difference (snip) a 10stam difference is only 10stam, but still a difference much like a 20% increase (or any) is still an increase, and helps make HoSalv usable in situations where it would otherwise not be).
I never said it didn't have an effect, I was however disputing it had the magnitude you were touting. You made the following claims:
Dorvan wrote:
SellassieTanks wrote:Do we lack vision?? :shock:

Wings + Salv = sexy extra cd
Wings will increase your threat *generation* by 20% for the duration, HoSalv will decrease your *total accumulated* threat by 20%. AW doesn't come close to making up for the threat loss of HoSalv.
SellassieTanks wrote:Make up Completely? No
Suffice for a Paladin who has NO Focus on threat stats...yup!
SellassieTanks wrote:Easy to see the Math does not make up for it,

But application suggests that it works quite nicely when a 20% decrease in damage is needed. A drop in threat occurs, but nothing like w/o AW up, and not enough to dip to second...We have some locks and a war who are redunkulous on TPS as well.
In here you claim that AW makes HoSalv sexy (ie an ideal or appealing option), that AW counteracts HoSalv's effects enough for a non deep ret prot paladin to be unconcerned with the the threat lose, and that the threat loss incurred when using HoSlav+AW is nothing like the threat loss without the use of AW (which is not true. You still experience 98% of the effects during the 3 minutes between AW CDs and the advantages get smaller as the build up time to HoSalv's use). These were inaccuracies that should be cleared up not because they could be disputed but because they are harmful to evaluating HoSalv's risks.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby SellassieTanks » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:59 am

Glyph of HoSalv is well worth the "risk" if u use AW in conjunction. Plus, what risk? can u read and rightclick? If so even if you start to drop too low on threat ...i dunno???? Click it Off?????

i didn't say AW+HoSalv = GOD MODE, just that it is a sexy CD.....20% more damage, while taking 20% less damage?? Sign me up! Thorim isn't in agreement w/ me either, b/c w/o this combo The last tank standingI would have died or some poor high TPS would have pulled aggro...and died....I like not dying
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Corpsicle » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:02 pm

You aren't considering all situations - the best advice you can give another tank about glyphed hand of salve is to be aware of the total threat they sit at and what the hand of salve will take them to if they use it, and to be aware of that in a non-vacuum. IE - what tps is the dps doing, who else could salve top dps, what damage are you trying to reduce (plasma blast which is a stream or Unbalancing Strike which is a one time hit), and do you have to reduce damage again with divine protection with in 30 seconds. If you have to use Divine Protection within 30 seconds of casting hand of salve, you can not combine it with Avenging Wrath or you will be locked out of DP when you need it. Obviously a tank should also have a cancelaura macro for Hand of Salvation - whether or not you can use it depends entirely on what kind of damage you ar trying to reduce.

Using above numbers, consistent with being perhaps 6 minutes into a fight based on some wws I looked at briefly. To end at 1,000,000 threat at the end of a 10 second duration Hand of Salve, you'd need to generate 200,000 treat over 10 seconds or 20,000 TPS. That 20,000 TPS only lets you hold even for a net of 0 TPS for 10 seconds. Assume you are doing 10,000 tps in a 25 man - a 20% damage boost is at best a 30% threat boost. Even being extremely generous and calling Avenging Wrath a 50% boost to threat, that still leaves you at 15,000 TPS - and that is still short of the 20,000 TPS needed to hold even at 0TPS in the given example. If you are at 1,000,000 threat, then DPS must reach 1,300,000 threat to pull off you. Lowering your total threat to 950,000 threat means DPS need to reach 1,235,000 total threat to pull off you. 1,235,000 is a number within the orignal range of 'safe' pre hand of salvation meaning you could have DPS that are in position to pull threat from you when Hand of Salvation is over - even assuming a higher than normal TPS using Avenging Wrath and generous assumptions.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby SellassieTanks » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:29 pm

Corpsicle, thank you for you reasoning skills. I agree (and have) that AW doesnt make up for Salv, simply accompanies it quite nicely. I feel that the two synergize enough to make the Glyph for HoSalv one of the most usable glyphs. unless u like the RD glyph??? and if u really need 2 taunts in that short amount of time u may be doing things a lil wrong in the first place
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby SellassieTanks » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:33 pm

Oh and BTW Majiben, Sexy = Appealing.....not Ideal, or else we would all marry strippers
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby badgermonkey » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:26 am

SellassieTanks wrote:Oh and BTW Majiben, Sexy = Appealing.....not Ideal, or else we would all marry strippers


Strippers aren't sexy.


Also - Salv is useful. If the DPS are really that close to me, it just takes some coordinated yelling over vent ;)
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Dread » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:27 am

SellassieTanks wrote:Oh and BTW Majiben, Sexy = Appealing.....not Ideal, or else we would all marry strippers


Your specs make me cringe.
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Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:49 am

The last little bit of this thread makes me cringe. Posts are full of personal attacks and overly sarcastic insults that are not appropriate for this forum.
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