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2/2 SA build

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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Dread » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:34 pm

This same "veteran" pally tank seems to have a gem for expertise in his shoulders, stamina instead of defense on his shield, has glyphed for Hammer of the Righteous (I hope he's only being used to tank trash), has 3/5 Reckoning, 2/2 Imp Judgements (lolwut?), and not a single minor glyph.

I really wouldn't be taking any kind of advice from him, tbh. Looks like an ebay to me.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... ypothermia
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:28 am

Seriously, enough guys. Maybe this is fun for you, but I am trying to establish myself in a new guild on a new server and you guys are doing nothing but digging a hole for me.

I try to participate here in a positive way, and I really don't appreciate people picking apart my guild mates for it.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Corpsicle » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:07 am

Koatanga, I would be curious to know how you do over the next week or two using your current spec and with out BoS. I've debated whether I could get away with kings over BoS when I am the only paladin and there is a disc priest around for the 3% damage reduction. Usually I run into such severe issues with mana that I end up swapping kings out for Blessing of Sanc mid fight. Most recently I ran into this on Ignis, using a speed kill strat - a fight on which I was expecting to get enough mana back from SA.

There will always be people more interested in negative comments than positive on any forum. I do agree with the above statements that buffing prot pallies with kings, might, and wisdom as opposed to kings, might, and blessing of sacrifice is wrong. I understand the politics you may be dealing with though, and you are likely right to tread lightly until establishing yourself somewhat in the guild.

A suggestion I haven't seen yet is to get the holy paladin on your side - can you get him to do a 10 min kings on you while you do a ten min Blessing of Sanctuary on yourself? You could try to arrange that in tells so as to keep it out of the public eye and avoid creating any issue. You could also go to the raid leader and try to open conversation about buffing in general - perhaps approach it as "the MT takes imp Might, yet I don't. I was thinking I'd do Sanctuary on pallies, with the holy pally doing kings on tanks and me doing kings on the holy pally. Sanctuary would be a great buff to get in the raid - the constant damage reduction alone is really nice, and it would let me boost my tps/dps significantly. My previous raids have always maximized pally buffs this way using ten minute buffs as needed."

There is no reason a conversation about buffs needs to be negative - you never have to say that the other tank is 'dumb, retarded, or even wrong.' You just need to present your thoughts as your personal needs and/or suggestions for the betterment of the raid as a whole. Consider that this guild invited you to join them - they must have some respect for your raiding history and abilities or they would never have invited you. Just be polite and respectful and positive in how you approach them about it - and try to keep it to tells so as to not grandly call anyone out on a stage. If they don't go for your suggestions, ask why if you can. Even better, ask for a week to show them what you can do if you are not limited by not having Blessing of Sanctuary.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Mert » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:48 am

I know what you're saying, it's hard to now show your guild this thread now that they've been called all sorts of things that you wouldn't want to show them. Having said that, I think the frustration people have shown at your guildie's attitude should really be telling - there is absolutely no way a serious Paladin tank should be turning down Sanctuary for Wisdom. I understand precicely why you need to do it their way for a bit and build up your reputation with them - I've had to do similar myself in the past but, ultimately, he's making the wrong decision and I really hope that we can at least give you the tools to one day demonstrate this for the greater success of your guild, even if that time cannot be right now. Good luck!

As for the build, I'm going to have to agree that 2/2 SA with 2/3 Crusade is going to still work out better than dropping points into Benediction. Point for point, Benediction is almost entirely a waste of talent points by comparison to the alternatives.

Again, best of luck with bolstering your reputation as a pro tankadin in your guild - some day you'll be the veteran rather than him and you'll have the benefit of being a far better informed one :)
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Cylan » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:03 am

I say, clearly present the argument to show that BoS is better than BoW for paladin tanks. If you have a civil debate about this with your fellow tankadin, it will show that you are in the right and fellow guildmates will support you.

We can help you with the maths and whatnot, I just hate to hear you're being (basically) bullied into gimping yourself and the rest of the raid.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Dread » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:23 am

Koatanga wrote:Seriously, enough guys. Maybe this is fun for you, but I am trying to establish myself in a new guild on a new server and you guys are doing nothing but digging a hole for me.

I try to participate here in a positive way, and I really don't appreciate people picking apart my guild mates for it.


I apologize for coming off hard about it, but I guess I wanted to demonstrate that you ought to be making a point of this to improve your new guild in general. I, as a player, have never been happy with less than highly progressive raiding. If you're happy with where your guild is at, good for you- enjoy your playing experience.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Argali » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:41 am

This forum has peer reviewed information. Lore and Worldie are famous on tankspot too.

People usually tend to believe others that are considered important, or famous. If you don't want to create lulzdrama, the best way to go forward is identify a non-retard class leader/officer/Maul Over-lord, who doesn't have a hero-worship fetish of the said Retard-in, and give him the relevant facts and information. Name drop. Try to pick threads posted by Famous Paladin A, backed up by Uber Paladin B. In the background through /w or PM's.

If no change happens, well.... GL with staying with a shitty guild. I know a lot of people who'd stay in a guild with serious problems just for the sake of raiding.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:58 pm

I understand, and had planned to use this site as a backbone for my position that Sanctuary is superior for their Paladin tanks.

However:

1: You don't just waltz into a new guild and start pushing people around. People simply fall back into the classic crouching position and defend the status quo without ever hearing what you have to say.

2: Doing things their way allows me to quantify the losses involved in terms of threat and mitigation of doing things their way instead of the optimal. Coming up with the best alternative spec to operate without Sanctuary allows me to do these maths.

However, instead of looking at this an as exercise in exploring an alternative, some of you chose to take it as an opportunity to grandstand. This renders this thread completely useless to me because I am not going to present something to my new guild leaders that is full of this "lol ur bad" crap. And of course if I refer them here for the rest of the theory, here's this thread being insulting, which will naturally cause them to be defensive and dismissive.

You guys are great with theory, but many of you fail miserably at tact.

As for the spec itself, the returns from 2/2 SA alone are insufficient to maintain a full 969 rotation and will only get worse as my avoidance increases. Benediction is practically a requirement, although that can be minimised using MP5 consumables or having other sources of mana income such as replenishment. If Divine Plea falls off and is on cooldown, you will have to swap to SoW. I have not used it in the Arena on Thorim yet, but I anticipate issues there. It was fine for phase 1 of Yogg, however. Threat is less but is still sufficient.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:32 pm

Sorry. It's difficult to come into a place dedicated to maximizing the potential of the Paladin tank and ask how to best gimp yourself so you can play with a guild run by bads.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Argali » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:40 pm

Also on the topic, Playstyles LOL! It's the 2nd part past the mimiron bits.

1: You don't just waltz into a new guild and start pushing people around. People simply fall back into the classic crouching position and defend the status quo without ever hearing what you have to say.


Pushing people around means you call their palatank and idiot and proceed to lecture him on how to tank. Fixing the situation involves presenting information to someone who will listen to reason, then filter the information.

However, instead of looking at this an as exercise in exploring an alternative, some of you chose to take it as an opportunity to grandstand. This renders this thread completely useless to me because I am not going to present something to my new guild leaders that is full of this "lol ur bad" crap. And of course if I refer them here for the rest of the theory, here's this thread being insulting, which will naturally cause them to be defensive and dismissive.


There's the stickies here, and on tankspot; which just have info, and no comments on your guild.

You guys are great with theory, but many of you fail miserably at tact.


It's called maintankadin for a reason, not gimpedOTankadin. On EJ you'd probably get banned for just asking how to optimise this spec. It is very hard to symphatise with your situation.

I just think you should start to address some of the problems to start off with, rather than just keeping quiet, and possibly suffer more in the long run.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:11 pm

I'm not just keeping quiet. Obviously I have already brought up the issue of buffs with the leadership.

I apologise for discussing the OT perspective on a MT board. I'll head elsewhere for OT advice.

Thanks to those of you who were constructive.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Corpsicle » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:49 pm

Koatanga wrote:I'm not just keeping quiet. Obviously I have already brought up the issue of buffs with the leadership.

I apologise for discussing the OT perspective on a MT board. I'll head elsewhere for OT advice.

Thanks to those of you who were constructive.


I think you might run into a problem with waiting to discuss things with your new guild. IE: "You have been tanking fine for the last month, this isn't a problem." Even if you aren't suggesting anything different, you could try presenting it as a case of puzzlement and ask for their advice - let them tell you why their way is better and in that conversation present your points as a 'by the way' or 'I heard this, how does that affect what you are telling me.'

Letting things get to be "status quo' for you could long run make this more difficult for you.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Wolvar » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:26 am

BOS grants you 2% max mana per block/parry/dodge. Assuming ~90% of the hits against a (raid buffed) paladin would be mitigated or avoided, and a 2 second swing timer and a (raid buffed) 6k mana pool, you get around 55mp5 just from BOS PLUS 3% overall mitigation from all attacks. These are very low estimates, depending on the boss or the fight it could be much higher.

Numbers and theorycraft aside, pallies don't have mana issues in a raid setting while running BOS (General excepted) so the simple solution to your problem is to get them to TRY it. When they don't have mana issues, the 3% mitigation becomes the reason for the blessing.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby Dread » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:32 am

Koatanga wrote:However, instead of looking at this an as exercise in exploring an alternative, some of you chose to take it as an opportunity to grandstand. This renders this thread completely useless to me because I am not going to present something to my new guild leaders that is full of this "lol ur bad" crap. And of course if I refer them here for the rest of the theory, here's this thread being insulting, which will naturally cause them to be defensive and dismissive.


This may be true, but at the same time, any intelligent person understands there's at least a grain of truth in there. So if you have so many people saying "lol ur bad" on a site dedicated to improving pally tanking, then there might be something to it...

As far as referring to threads, I'd recommend you refer them to the blue thread about BoSanc being the intended blessing as a start.
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Re: 2/2 SA build

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:27 pm

Solare wrote:I agree with Heck.

Who's Heck?

Koatanga wrote:As for the spec itself, the returns from 2/2 SA alone are insufficient to maintain a full 969 rotation and will only get worse as my avoidance increases. Benediction is practically a requirement, although that can be minimised using MP5 consumables or having other sources of mana income such as replenishment. If Divine Plea falls off and is on cooldown, you will have to swap to SoW. I have not used it in the Arena on Thorim yet, but I anticipate issues there. It was fine for phase 1 of Yogg, however. Threat is less but is still sufficient.

Just checking Wolvar's numbers:
Assuming a boss with a 2-second swing speed after JotJ (this is actually slow, Vezax is 1.81 after JotJ), and a 6k buffed mana pool:
Every dodge/parry/block gives 6000*0.02=120 mana
Assuming your miss chance is only 10% and you're block-capped, you have a 90% chance on each swing of triggering this, so
120 mana * ( 0.9 trigger/swing ) * ( 1 swing / 2 seconds) = 54 mana per second.
Which is actually 270 mp5.

Compare this to Blessing of Wisdom, which is 92 mp5 (109 if improved). So Sanctuary is 2.5x better than Wisdom for mana regen even in the worst case (single boss with a slow swing speed). It gets rapidly better as the swing speed gets shorter or you add additional attackers.

A quick search of my old posts turned up this one, which talks about our regen mechanics and Benediction specifically. I'm sure I've done a more thorough post on it somewhere else, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.
Theck wrote:Divine Plea is roughly 125 mana per second, or 625 mp5
1/2 SA gives you 5% of your healing back as mana. That's 50 mana per second (or 250 mp5) for every 1k damage taken per second. A tanking paladin will be taking around 2-3k DTPS, so you're looking at between 500 and 750 mp5 from 1/2 SA. Double that if you use 2/2.
BoSanctuary: You gain mana on a parry/dodge/block (but not miss). Assuming you're block-capped, and your miss chance is 10% (likely a highball estimate), you'll be dodge/parry/blocking 90% of the attacks aimed at you. For a single boss with a 2.0 swing speed (which is slow, by the way - vezax is 1.8 after JotJ), that's 0.9/2=0.45 attacks per second. For a base mana pool of 4500, 2% is 90 mana, for a total of 40.5 mana per second, or 202 mp5.

So our 3 major mana regen sources give us 625, ~500, and 200 mp5 respectively, for a total of 1325ish mp5 or higher. 27 mp5 is 2% of this value, which means that in a raid situation each talent point in Benediction is effectively increasing our mana regeneration by 2% or so.

Again, not terrible, but not very strong either. Especially when you consider that you get roughly 23x more mana out of the 2nd point in SA. One point in Benediction will probably not make or break you on most fights, and probably won't be noticeable. The one nice thing about it is that it's always on, whereas SA is not (incoming DTPS isn't constant, it swings wildly due to avoidance, which means you'll generally get both health and mana topped off periodically throughout the fight).

Given those numbers, each point in SA should be around 500 to 750 mp5, which should easily cover for the lack of Sanctuary if you're actually taking damage, even without Benediction. That said, if you have a full-time ret to keep up HotC, you can move 4 points into Benediction for no threat loss (1/2 Imp Judge and skip HotC and Imp BoM.).
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