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3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby TokenElf » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:58 am

Wardari wrote:I think you may be underestimating the effect of the block changes, I think the amount of extra block we'll gain through the librams, set bonus (all of which can be considered as a part of our static SBV now due to their double duration, meaing their buff lasts as long or longer than the proccing ability CD) plus the doubling of the SBV on our gear will actually make using it a viable stratedgy for Paladins. I'm not saying we're going to be stripping off our avoidance gear and throwing on pure block gear, but we'll be able to achieve somewhere in the region of 4-5k SBV depending on how far you push it while still maintaining a respectable level of avoidance. I believe the current max obtainable is around 2.7k for a Paladin with full buffs, although this is literally using all SBV gear and thus an unrealistic figure for and ulduar tanking set, currently in full 25 man buffs and my full avoidance gear i'm pushing about 1400 SBV with my libram up, around 1200ish without. As it stands this is an insignificant amount of damage and makes it icing on the cake mitigation, rather than something you're actively stacking.


My current avoidance set has me sitting at around the same with LoO up.
Thing is, there is about 50 BV in there that will get boosted.

So instead of averaging around 1300 BV for the fights, I will average 1500.

Seriously, it is not even worth noting. And for this change we lost 30% of ShoR's damage. It will be a net loss.

As usual they didn't bother looking at how people gear and expected us to be taking block sets into boss fights.

Even my block set is not going to gain the "massive" amount of block people thought it will. I figured I'd hit around 25-2600 sustained block in a full block set. I use this for Naxx trash and heroics because it allows the aren't hurting me enough to matter.
For Ulduar trash and any bosses outside of heroics the avoidance set is on.

Relating to the OP:

I don't think it will be as amazing as you think. Preventing wipes from RNG failures is the best part. Will it be OP? Not really. It removes the ability to proactively set up survival in spike situations. I'd rather have someone able to survive spikes for 10+ seconds because they knew it was coming than someone that can't set it up for the healers and we all just hope they stay up.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Barathorn » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:47 am

If I may interject here. While current gearing does indeed suggest that even doubling BV is not what progression tanks will do for the current content, I should point out that this is for the new patch, with gear that we have not seen yet, for new bosses that we know nothing about.

Dare we hope for items with def, dodge and BV on them?

Time will tell.

With regard to AD, its a freebie that we were not really expecting. I will take that gladly.

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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:30 am

Even so, items with no BR but with BV wouldn't necessarily be better hands down. It'd take some number crunching (and application to encounters) to find out if that's actually better than just having a little more avoidance.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Aragão » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Awyndel wrote:None of the tank classes get a free pass for spike damage once every 2 mins, wich does not involve them actually having to predict it, or respond to it insanely fast.


And that is 'cause Blood Dk's Can't Vampiric Blood for 30 sec every 2 minutes AMIRITE?

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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:31 pm

Aragão wrote:
Awyndel wrote:None of the tank classes get a free pass for spike damage once every 2 mins, wich does not involve them actually having to predict it, or respond to it insanely fast.


And that is 'cause Blood Dk's Can't Vampiric Blood for 30 sec every 2 minutes AMIRITE?

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This is still a cooldown that you need to use and time well. And although it might save you from a spike if timed well, it doesn't give you a garantueed resque from rng deaths on a 2 min cd.

The worst part is this will prolly allow us to stand in a rocket on mimiron without a bubble :P
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby badgermonkey » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:59 pm

Some decent block value + avoidance gear is showing at the Coliseum vendors :)
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Ragingsoul » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:53 pm

well, I don't know if it's OP or not, but we seriously need some sort of cd.

with only 1 cd, on fights where you have to use it as a specific time, we are SO under the other tanks.

When doing thorium for example, the only thing I can do if I see myself dropping low before then end of the fight, it's pop trinket and fucking hope I don't get hit or I die.. that's just stupid. doing shield wall to quickly will kill you after with unbalancing for 40k or more. Every other tank has at least 2 cds, and they normally don't have this problem. When a tank sees his hp low, he should NOT have to pray not to die with all cds at disposal.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Racolus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:07 pm

Ragingsoul wrote:well, I don't know if it's OP or not, but we seriously need some sort of cd.

with only 1 cd, on fights where you have to use it as a specific time, we are SO under the other tanks.

When doing thorium for example, the only thing I can do if I see myself dropping low before then end of the fight, it's pop trinket and fucking hope I don't get hit or I die.. that's just stupid. doing shield wall to quickly will kill you after with unbalancing for 40k or more. Every other tank has at least 2 cds, and they normally don't have this problem. When a tank sees his hp low, he should NOT have to pray not to die with all cds at disposal.


Meh, we have 2.

What really makes us under (in this department) is:

While other tanks are glyphing to make their CD better, we are glyphing to get another CD.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby honorshammer » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:40 am

Racolus wrote:
Ragingsoul wrote:well, I don't know if it's OP or not, but we seriously need some sort of cd.

with only 1 cd, on fights where you have to use it as a specific time, we are SO under the other tanks.

When doing thorium for example, the only thing I can do if I see myself dropping low before then end of the fight, it's pop trinket and fucking hope I don't get hit or I die.. that's just stupid. doing shield wall to quickly will kill you after with unbalancing for 40k or more. Every other tank has at least 2 cds, and they normally don't have this problem. When a tank sees his hp low, he should NOT have to pray not to die with all cds at disposal.


Meh, we have 2.

What really makes us under (in this department) is:

While other tanks are glyphing to make their CD better, we are glyphing to get another CD.


We don't have 2. We have a PVP glyph that we are using to band aid in a cooldown like effect (HoSalv). It gives our 'cooldown' a drawback the likes of which no other tank class deals with.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby knaughty » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:37 am

I find it unfathomable that people rate the CD as poor.

The AD change is ridiculously OP.

Grats, flat 10.5% EH boost, provided by universal mitigation, which is more powerful than a health boost.

I'm currently running 44k health. New AD gives me almost 49k effective health due to damage reduction. It's close enough to an always up "Last Stand" due to block synergy.

That version would be OP. I've consistently said "unskippable AD would be OP" since Tier-6. Still is.

Then you add in the CD, and it gets more powerful.

Option 1: No CD. You die. Raid wipes. Remember, you already had close to perma-last-stand from the mitigation.

Option 2: Comes with leet CD. You "die". Except you don't, you get a "cheat death" plus a 30% heal. Raid doesn't wipe, but now you're as hard to heal as a warrior who doesn't have his last stand up.

People say OHNOES! If I die I lose my damage reduction!

HELLO! Normally when you die... you freaking DIE!

As for people saying "Block sucks".

Umm... no it doesn't. I run an average of something like 2k block. We're working on Steelbreaker. He hits for 25k. My blocks are taking off almost 10% of damage received.

IF you're facing a boss that hits less hard than Steelbreaker (all of them) and you're running round with 4k block (which I'll easily be able to do on release day of 3.2 - I could do it now with no significant health/avoidance loss).... grats, you block is taking at least 20% off the hits you receive.

Holy shield is roughly half as effective as shield wall under new block mechanics. With 100% uptime. Gearing for block will make a lot of sense for everything but heavy magic fights.

And this isn't just bullshit theory craft. For Wed night Steelbreaker attempts, I was tanking. P1, P2 I was healed by a single Holy paladin, no issues. Damage is smooth & consistent, Holy pally can keep me up (and do 90% of dispels) until P3.

Tonight, we switched to a DK tank (because his DPS is terribad - shit gear) and I went ret.

Two hours of wipes later, we had to give up and give him a second healer to get to P3. Incoming damage is just too spiky, he always died if only one healer on him. For P3, 3rd tank... he's OP due to massive stackable CDs. Prior to that, he's noticably harder to heal... on a boss hitting for over 20k. Block works.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby majiben » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:41 am

Frankly knaughty you are undervaluing AD's EH contribution. On any fight where you are hit for 65% or more of your hp it's a 43% EH increase.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:34 am

The EH part is quite powerfull.

Nobody rates the cd part as poor. Most ppl rate it as a welcome change, or as a completely OP tool to deal with spike damage.

But while it's a really good panic button, it is useless as a planned cooldown for let's say a plasma blast or a surge of darkness, because it only helps on one damaging attack, while a last stand or any damage reduction work multiples times over, as you get healed over and over again.

So what I'm actually trying to say with this topic is, that blizzard made is quite OP, but did not give us the utility we wanted. This might still work out fine for us while tanking, and might give us more popularity. And it might be blizzards intention. But in essence it just seems weird and wrong to me.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Bundy » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:51 am

Knaughty wrote:
Holy shield is roughly half as effective as shield wall under new block mechanics. With 100% uptime. Gearing for block will make a lot of sense for everything but heavy magic fights.


Id say there roughly even with each other. HS uptime 100%, SB uptime 50% (T9 bonus) but with double BV. That kinda equals out in some way. 100 x1 = 50 x 2. The only thing is with shield block up and chance to block for double of that amount. Thats gonna come out to alot. somewhere in the 12-15k range I would think. And if new bosses are gonna be hitting for a little less but faster, like some people are hinting at, it may be possible to block the entire hit from a boss.

Also shield block would own for multiple mobs, where HS charges would be eaten before its off CD. Anyways, idc what anyone says is "optimal". I will be taking all the BV gear I can get, and I wouldnt be mad if some BR was on there too.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:43 am

Just read the topic about AD on the ptr. Makes the EH part quite op, but makes the cd part a bit more balanced. But although it has its drawbacks, in the old version we would have died, wich is obviously endlessly worse.
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Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Sathoris » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:11 am

Barathorn wrote:If I may interject here. While current gearing does indeed suggest that even doubling BV is not what progression tanks will do for the current content, I should point out that this is for the new patch, with gear that we have not seen yet, for new bosses that we know nothing about.


You are right on this statement, the changes will be a nice addition to ulduar bosses for guilds who haven't progress them yet, but in the mean time the changes were ment for the new content.

Barathorn wrote:Dare we hope for items with def, dodge and BV on them?

You are right on this statement as well. Check this one out: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/june/t9_paladin_tank_258.jpg


Barathorn wrote:With regard to AD, its a freebie that we were not really expecting. I will take that gladly.


Me too :)
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