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[Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Palmela » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:01 pm

Didn't want to make a new post but I'm in the same boat on needing to improve my dps as Ret. My gear is alright and I'm hit capped but still with popping wings+wild magic pot I cant seem to break 4k on a boss. I've read up on the whole FCFS rotation and follow it pretty well with leaning towards hitting CS first if it has less than .5 sec left on the CD. Rawr says I should be doing 5001 dps fully raid buffed yet tonight on Vezax I only did around 3900. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Elsie » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:22 pm

Rawr has a rather inflated view of dps.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Dorvan » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:33 pm

Rawr gives you a theorectical DPS output from flawless execution on a complete stand-still fight.

specific to you case thouh, is the important detail that vezax's aura includes a -20% melee haste debuff
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Palmela » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:34 pm

Even so, seems like with a Worldcarver and 5k AP buffed I should be doing more than 3.9k dps? Is that wrong or would hitting the expertise cap in my case make it viable?
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby kensanity » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:22 am

I'm interested in exact details of the FCFS rotation.

Ok

As i understand, it should be CS>J>DS>Exco>Cons>HW (with Hammer of Wrath in between CS and J)

Now, does this mean that whenever something with higher priority is available, i use it, or does it mean that I keep eveyrthing on Cooldown and then use the highest priority all the time with conflicting Cooldowns?

What i mean is this

If i open up with this
CS>J>DS>Cons

At this point CS has come off of Cooldown. Since its higher in priority do i go back to CS and then to excorcism and then whatever is next off of CD, or do I go with Excorcism before I go back to Crusader strike?

I know this may seem like a minor problem but I want to make sure that I do in fact understand the way to optimize the FCFS rotation as i'm not happy with my ret dps as of late.... Obsidian greathelm, 4 pc t8, hit and exp cap, nice rings, greatness and mirror and stormedge and I still only putting out like 7k on somethign like loatheb 25 man or even like 4.4k on KT...

IDK i wish i could link a parse or someting but can't find one and i'm in tank gear right now...

ALso, is there a solid benchmark number for dps in 25 man ulduar? I know it changes based on fight but lets say something like ignis or XTd deconstrctor, sans any slag pots or too many light bombs, what kind of dps should i expect to do? I feel bad sometimes when I'm 5th in my raid but the top 4 are 2 rogues a DK and a mage so idk, maybe they are just crazy at dpsing.

I not trying to be number 1, but there is a clear gap, maybe 1k dps, between me and the top 4. I dotn feel as if i'm too badly geared and I really just want to figure out if its player skill itself that is gimping me.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:23 am

You should use whatever available ability has the highest priority each cooldown. So in the example you gave, you go for CS, not exorcism.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Jonlo » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:45 am

Ok, I have some gear upgraded, and now I really need help. Posting some logs.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/browse/gu ... /50/25#all

Starting with Yogg-Saron on this page. and going to the first page. I don't know what else to do to turn up my DPS. I'm using FCFS, I've upgraded some gear (I'm trying to get new belt boots, and dump hit rating right now) but my DPS is still coming in low.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:56 am

Majiben wrote:They have this terrible idea that you should read entire threads that are unindexed for your answer because the people posing questions don't word them to be ideal for a search engine. For that question alone you would have to search any of the numerous combinations of the following:"


FWIW, I have nothing against this attitude. Lots of people actually have read the entire thread - I read changes to my classes threads every day or two, and have read basically every thread in the hunter section for the past 3 years or so. Most of the other regular posters have too. I don't know how bad it is in the pally section, but the hunter threads all receive daily spam of the same questions being asked over and over - sometimes the question and answer is 12 pages back, sometimes is 2 posts up.

Yeah, maybe having to read 20 pages to answer your question sucks for people who haven't been reading the forum daily, but answering the same question more than once in a discussion thread clutters stuff up for the regulars, and there's no obligation on their part to make things easier for infrequent visitors. It's not meant to be wowwiki, it's meant to be mechanics discussion. Questions we know the answers to are clutter.

The hunters usually have a sticky for simple questions/answers in their section where people are more free to ask things, maybe the pally section could do with one too (feel free to start one if there isn't).
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:07 am

Also, if you post something with the starter post rank, I'm fairly sure you're examined more closely for infractions than people with high post ranks and names familiar to the forum you're posting in (you still get immediate infractions regardless of your rank if you do egregious stuff like poor grammar/spelling or being hostile or having no content, but asking a question seems to be scrutinized less, and the spelling/grammar only get caught because someone noticed them, not because "OMG GLASS JOE, THERE'S GOTTA BE SOMETHING WRONG HERE").
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby majiben » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:41 am

We should be so lucky to only have 20 page threads. 80-100+ frankly was what the size of the threads for each spec was before 3.1 and now they are back up to almost 60. The notion people who've been around have read the threads as justification for a lack of decent indexing is hallow. You read those mammoth threads over weeks and months not expected do it all at once to have a relatively minor question addressed. It would be like if had to go through an entire year book just to find out if your picture was in there somewhere.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:11 am

Majiben wrote:We should be so lucky to only have 20 page threads. 80-100+ frankly was what the size of the threads for each spec was before 3.1 and now they are back up to almost 60. The notion people who've been around have read the threads as justification for a lack of decent indexing is hallow. You read those mammoth threads over weeks and months not expected do it all at once to have a relatively minor question addressed. It would be like if had to go through an entire year book just to find out if your picture was in there somewhere.


I didn't say we have 20 page thread, I said the question may have last been asked in the last 20 pages. We have our share of 100+ page threads too. Yes, I've read them all.

The notion that relatively minor questions need to be answered is silly. The forum isn't there to answer people's questions, it's there to figure out and learn stuff. Ideally if you're learning something from there you're also contributing stuff, which you can't unless you're familiar with what's already known, which you demonstrably aren't when asking a question the collective knows the answer to because it's been asked and answered.

If you want to complain about the search being inadequate, fine, do that. That doesn't mean you get to add another 30 pages of useless questions to the 120 page thread. And good luck finding better searching on plaintext metadata free forums.

TLDR: you're not "expected" to read the mammoth threads, you're expected to be useful. If you're not being useful, whether it's convenient for you to learn something other people already know isn't their problem, it's yours. Posting about it makes it their problem, and they're well within their rights to ban you for making it their problem.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby majiben » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:32 am

The point is that their format is not conducive for learning for someone not a part of the community already. It would be as if you were new to a field of study and before you could ask any questions you were expected to read through an unindexed and unlabeled stack of all papers in that field.

It's almost like their forum style was designed not to express subtleties in the knowledge pool to new comers. At the very least they relish in it now and aren't likely to change since it provides no direct benefit to regulars. It would be like refusing to explain to a new comer to the internet what l33t meant when they had no access to search engines. Sure all the hardcore users of the internet know what it means through accrued knowledge but no where is it written at the enterance to the internet.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:48 am

It doesn't have to be conducive to teaching people who aren't part of the community. Why should we care about people not part of the community? All that's required of them if they want to a productive member is:

a. read the rules
b. take an hour or two out of their busy WoW lives to skim over the important threads (and yes, that's all it takes, an hour or two. I've read each of the 4 big threads on my alt's class forum too, and never had to post a question as a result).

Again, you're there to be useful to the community. If all you want is to have your own questions answered, there's no incentive to keeping you around.

You're also overstating how hard it is to find something on the forums. Sorry, no, searching EJ for something isn't at all like having to "read through an unindexed and unlabeled stack of all papers in that field". Pick some good keywords, pick the right forums to search in, and search. If the results aren't good, pick broader keywords, pick the particular thread(s) that are likely to have the question, and search only those threads. If that still doesn't work, skim the last 20 pages of posts. You might still get unlucky like the poster in this thread did, but usually you'll find something.

Also, going back to the earlier big about how long threads are, if I remember correctly the original hunter shot mechanics thread in vanilla was the first to exceed their page limit (I think it was over 200 pages or something). Was neat, we could keep posting in the thread but the posts on the last page never changed. I think I even had one of the last visible posts there :D
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby Baelor » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:28 am

fafhrd wrote:It doesn't have to be conducive to teaching people who aren't part of the community. Why should we care about people not part of the community? All that's required of them if they want to a productive member is:

a. read the rules
b. take an hour or two out of their busy WoW lives to skim over the important threads (and yes, that's all it takes, an hour or two. I've read each of the 4 big threads on my alt's class forum too, and never had to post a question as a result).

Again, you're there to be useful to the community. If all you want is to have your own questions answered, there's no incentive to keeping you around.

You're also overstating how hard it is to find something on the forums. Sorry, no, searching EJ for something isn't at all like having to "read through an unindexed and unlabeled stack of all papers in that field". Pick some good keywords, pick the right forums to search in, and search. If the results aren't good, pick broader keywords, pick the particular thread(s) that are likely to have the question, and search only those threads. If that still doesn't work, skim the last 20 pages of posts. You might still get unlucky like the poster in this thread did, but usually you'll find something.

Also, going back to the earlier big about how long threads are, if I remember correctly the original hunter shot mechanics thread in vanilla was the first to exceed their page limit (I think it was over 200 pages or something). Was neat, we could keep posting in the thread but the posts on the last page never changed. I think I even had one of the last visible posts there :D

Searching the paladin forum is a bit harder than searching some other classes because of the shared terminology. Everything has a Divine, Sacred, Seal of, Judgement of, Hand of, etc, attached to it - there aren't any unique search terms. If you want to search about Divine Protection, you'll get everything from discussion/commentary on Hand of Protection, the protection tree, Divine Shield, and Divine Storm.

I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just more difficult than normal for the paladin forum.

That said, discussing the merits/demerits of EJ is not in the scope of this thread - please stick to topic.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]Need help with improving DPS

Postby majiben » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:38 am

Have you checked on their search terms lately? You have to use words over three letters long which excludes a great deal of commonly used terms for forums. Add in that most terms have quite a few synonyms (hit, attack, shot, strike, blow for instance) and the number of permutations grows out of hand quickly while at the same time often preventing some basic narrowing of responses. Also look at how the effort to find the answer yourself on their forum is a hundred fold the effort it takes to ask and have it answered by another.

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