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Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

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Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby Atticus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:15 am

First - I searched for this topic and didn't find anything - sorry if this has, in fact, been discussed.

While running Naxx 25 the other day as an OT (to my MT friend decked out in tons of Uld 25 gear) I was asked to heal on Instructor and DPS on Thaddius. I was off-specced healing. I really didn't need to do much healing on the Instructor but our DPS could have been a bit better. On Thaddius I lolprotDPS'ed with a converse result - we could have used a bit more healing and I was OOM for long chunks of time DPSing. So my question is: Has anyone tried/tested off-speccing with an effective combo of Holy and Ret for raid situations where we'd actually need to both heal and DPS during boss fights that warrant it? I wonder what the right talent balance would be so that heals thrown out while DPSing aren't worthless and DPS can still be adequate to respectable? I suppose this creates a major gear question too, but let's set that aside for the moment.

Crazy idea? Maybe, but we are a hybrid class. I guess the bottom line is whether actually being a hybrid "works".

Thanks in advance for your input.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby Baelor » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:46 am

Spec ret, watch your AoW procs like a hawk, and use them every time they're up.

That's how you off-heal while DPS'ing.

Trying to do 2 roles with 1 spec ends with you doing 2 things poorly.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby Atticus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:49 am

Baelor wrote:Spec ret, watch your AoW procs like a hawk, and use them every time they're up.

That's how you off-heal while DPS'ing.

Trying to do 2 roles with 1 spec ends with you doing 2 things poorly.



Hey thanks. Yeah, that was what I expected (i.e. being not merely adequate but lousy at both roles). I'll take your advice. Thank God for Healbot too.

One further question though - would it make sense to use a faster weapon for this purpose (more procs?) or would the usual slowish 2H be fine? Thanks again.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby uke » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:08 am

For paladins, hybrid specs used to work in Vanilla WoW, but not anymore.

If you spec somewhat equally in more than one tree, you will be worse than subpar at both roles and generally useless.

If you spec ret...spec ret (with at least 5 points in Divine Strength in Prot and nothing in Holy). If you need to heal that badly, your FoL's will have a decent punch to them due to Sheath of Light in the ret tree. Use a proper ret weapon. If the raid needs more healing that bad, then they need to look at either improving their existing healers, or bringing in another one before they look to dps acting as healers. This isn't to say to never worry about healing as ret, as ret is very good at keeping themselves topped off with instant FoL's + Sacred Shield. However, if you're there as ret, you're there to:

1. DPS
2. DPS
3. DPS

Same with Holy. Holy paladins are there to heal, and leave the dps to the dps.

The idea of hybrid specs that are sorta healing/sorta dps have no place in this day and age of WoW. You will be a burden to the raid attempting to do so.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby Atticus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:28 am

Thanks to you as well. My preference is always to MT and DPS but not necessarily heal - these are situations where the raid is asking me to do these kinds of things. Good points to get me out of healing.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby uke » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:10 pm

Atticus wrote:Thanks to you as well. My preference is always to MT and DPS but not necessarily heal - these are situations where the raid is asking me to do these kinds of things. Good points to get me out of healing.


The really ironic thing is that I'm actually usually number 3 or 4 on the healing meters as ret just from Judgement of Light procs. JoL is OP for ret right now until 3.2 normalizes it (boo!). You'd actually do more healing going all out dps as ret than any sort of a hybrid, as all of ret's healing is tied in to them doing DPS. A true hybrid, of sorts :mrgreen:

Oh, and if the raid is trying to get you to focus on healing as ret, they need to L2P. If they're getting you to heal as tank spec, than that's an epic /facepalm.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby Atticus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:21 pm

Oh! They're not that bad. It's more of a situational thing where we need only one tank, who in this case would be better geared than me, and I have to find something to do other than sit on my hands. :) I tend to be the MT in most cases though.
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby uke » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:20 pm

Atticus wrote:Oh! They're not that bad. It's more of a situational thing where we need only one tank, who in this case would be better geared than me, and I have to find something to do other than sit on my hands. :) I tend to be the MT in most cases though.


Ah, if that's the case I would either:

1. go ahead and dps as prot. It's not as lol-dps as it used to be and the 3.1 changes made them self-sustaining in regards to mana when not being hit.
2. Invest in dual specs and get together either a ret or holy set (which can be done fairly easily) and actually spec/gear for the role you're needed in on one-tank fights. But ret OR holy, not a hybrid of both :wink:
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Re: Holy/Ret Combo - Viable Situational Off-spec?

Postby sherck » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:48 am

Well, I am going to go the opposite direction....my Holy Paladin had his 2nd spec as a "Shockadin" spec with 34 points in Holy (up to Holy Shock and Purifying Power to shorten Exorcism CD) and 37 points in Ret (to include Art of War, Repentance and the Replenishment talent)

Full Holy Spell Power gear with as much Critical Strike as you can find. I used 2 Critical Strike Librams (Darkmoon Card: Death and Sundial of the Exiled) and the green Libram of Furious Blows that increased your Critical Strike chance for 5 sec following a Judgement.

Talent to get Exorcism down to a 10 second cast time and your basic combat sequence is (take GCD times with a gain of salt, you will also have so much Haste on your gear that you get all of this inside of a 10 second combat sequency easily):

0.00 Judgement
1.50 Exorcism
3.00 Holy Shock
4.50 Shield of the Righteous
6.00 Consecrate
7.50 Free GCD for healing, shield or cleanse
9.00 Free GCD for healing, shield or cleanse
10.50 Start Over

With Naxx-25 raid buffs (and in full Naxx-25 gear), I was able to put out a substained 2.4-2.7k DPS on fights like Heigan or Loathar (sp?) without a spore buff, and still deliver some very nice heals (still have over 2k SP with raid buffs....1800 unbuffed).

Sure, not overwhelming DPS when compared to a Ret....but your healing will be vastly superior to that of any Ret if you need to use it. I still had over 20k mana in this setup with Illumination so if you needed to either heal or DPS, you can do either when not tanking.

My 2 cents.

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