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New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

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New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Wardari » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:29 pm

So with the new changes it doesn't look like a huge amount of changes to our actual build, however there was one particular change that I noticed that has me interested in dumping a few extra talent points into holy to reach imp LoH.

Lay on Hands: The buff from this ability now reduces the physical damage taken by the target by 10/20% instead of increasing the target's armor.

Above is a direct Cut n Paste from the patch notes on mmo-champion, it doesn't actually mention Imp LoH in the wording however it refers to the 10/20% armor increase which is only given by speccing into those talents. I'm going to assume this was just a miss-wording on Blizzards part when writing the notes, but I guess we'll see for sure on the PTR.

So I'm actually looking at this build for my main tanking spec (while maintaining the usual retri talents/crusader build as my threat/trash/OT build as my dual spec). I've also included Glyphs too.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVcbMZV0 ... dxo:pjGcmV

So what does this get us and what we will be losing?

Gains:

-With the new AD redesign we've basically got a 2 minute built in Guardian Spirit in addition to a new and improved damage reduction mechanism.
-Hand of Salvation 20% panic button
-With glyph and 2 points in Imp LoH another 20% damage reduction on a 6 minute CD.
-Our usual Divine Protection Shield wall on a 2 min CD.

Effectively giving us 3 panic buttons and our 2 minute CD death prevention.

-Given the changes to SoV taking 5/5 in Seals of the Pure will likely be a very nice buff to threat.
-The two points in Divine Intellect and Unyielding Faith feel very much "meh" talents that are purely there to fill in the gaps to reach Imp LoH. I'm really not sure if this is worth it as I do like taking Pursuit of Justice in retribution in my tanking build, but I personally think that LoH will be worth it for the extra panic button. I imagine holy paladins will still be able to take this too in their spec but i'm building this spec purely from a single tank point of view for those time where you might not have a holy pala available.

Loses:

-3% damage increase from crusade - not great, but I find our TPS is superb already and depending on the changes to SoV this may not be needed anymore.
-15% increased movement speed from PoJ, not everyone took this in the first place and you can always take Tuskuar's Vitality for a movement increase.
-We lose the opportunity to gain our own demo shout effect with the new Vindication.

Overall there's no major changes to the Protection tree, it's just shifting a few talent points from Retribution to Holy - I think it will be worth it but I guess the theorycrafting regarding loss of threat from Crusade Vs Seals of the Pure and any changes that are likely to be made on the PTR will prove or disprove this.

I guess this really falls down to what you have in your raid on a regular basis, if you have a retri and no holy paladins then the above build would probably be preferrable.
If you have a Holy paladin but no retribution paladins then I would say http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZV0tAb ... xsr:pjGcVm would be better as you're getting the demo shout effect that doesn't require a GCD to apply which is fantastic in itself.


So suggestions/feedback everyone?
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby PapaNasty » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:25 pm

hmm..... I think that the dmg reduction buff, as opposed to the armor increase buff, will work out to around the same damage reduction, maybe actually less, but just make it a bit more useful. Since at present I think much/some of the +armor bonus from lay on hands gets pushed off the table since it's above the armor cap, I'm not sure on this but if it's not pushed off it'd be pretty damn close (Maybe have to use an indestructable pot aswell)

And I figure, I don't spec it now (Too many passive defensive talents which I'd be losing in order to gain 1x +on use defensive talent with an 11min cooldown), so why spec it when there's more to offer from other talents and the same from that talent.


I'm thinking of more going towards the ret side of the tree and getting vindication for the demo shout effect, since it is nice to be the complete package soto speak, particularly since I don't know what the demo shout debuff looks like, but knowing our dps warriors in guild I'm sure they are too lazy to put it up lolz (We often have to get our warrior tank to tank first adds, even tho it occasionally means they have to hold back on threat for the first few seconds, because otherwise sunders/expose armor doesn't get applied lol)

I've never been a fan of the "Lets add in some +crit talents" theory which alot go by, instead prefering since 3.1 to stick with Divinity and Divine Guardian for additional mitigation and healing recieved.

However with the changes to Vindication I'd like to work that into my spec (Current: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9947) but need to work out where to lose 2x talent points from.

Am thinking maybe imo BoM although I do like to have the option of providing it in a 10man etc, with maybe the other talent point coming from Spiritual Attunement if testing shows that I can get back enough mana from Divine Plea + Sanctuary (Since with Sanc changes I'll always have Sanc even in 10mans)

Otherwise am thinking might have to drop some points from divinity or similar maybe I'm not sure.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Wardari » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:30 pm

I'm very much of the same opinion Papa, in that vindication will certainly over the course of an entire fight provide more damage reduction than the 20% from Imp LoH.

I'm still very much torn on this as I like the idea of having an extra panic button and as you mentioned the 20% damage reduction is certainly an improvement on 20% armor as for most tanks this won't give us much more than 10-12% reduction from armor as we're already sitting at around 63-65% damage reduction from armor.

However the idea that we can apply our own "demo shout" without using a GCD and something that's literally going to be up all the time from our auto attacks.

I think overall the Vindication build will be superior, but i still like my panic buttons :D

The only question that remains is if taking Seals of the Pure is worth it with the new SoV changes, or if just continuing down the retribution tree for pursuit of justice and crusade will be just as good. It's effectively 15% damage increase to the seal and judgements Vs an overall 3% damage increase to everything. I'll leave this part up to our resident number crunching experts to find out which is better, but this would effectively make http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbu ... bbc:pjGcmV a very powerful build
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Dorvan » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:26 am

It's not at all clear that Imp LoH will be any better with the change than it is now.....I'm honestly unsure what Blizzard's intended effect is. The only thing that may make Imp LoH builds more popular in 3.2 imo is if the seal changes make SotP better than Crusade for threat.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Wardari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:04 am

Dorvan wrote:It's not at all clear that Imp LoH will be any better with the change than it is now.....I'm honestly unsure what Blizzard's intended effect is. The only thing that may make Imp LoH builds more popular in 3.2 imo is if the seal changes make SotP better than Crusade for threat.


Well even basic Napkin maths would suggest that the new Imp LoH would be better than the current.

On my paladin i'm sitting around 27k armor (still max of Ulduar 25 and some t7.5 items) with devo aura up, which is roughly 63/64% damage reduction (i'm at work and don't have time to check the exact number) so we're only around 11/12% off the armor cap which gives a max of 75% reduction.

So even at armor cap u can only achieve roughly 12% extra reduction to physical damage, Imp LoH will grant 10/20% to physical damage reduction instead of buffing your armor for the same amount, so it's already pretty clear it's superior.

As you pointed out though the major thing is the threat from SoTP Vs Crusade, I was just playing around the idea of an extra 6 min panic button :)
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby serrasin » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:18 am

It looks like one of the seals will be changed so that it returns mana proactively. While I am sure that this was intended for retribution, it might just prove valuable to protection paladins as well. We might be able to take a slight hit to threat and gain better proactive mana recovery, especially with hammer or righteousness. Granted we still need to wait and see how things shake up on the ptr, but this definately caught my eye; especially for speed pulling trash and such that I over gear.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:03 am

Wardari wrote:-Given the changes to SoV taking 5/5 in Seals of the Pure will likely be a very nice buff to threat.

I think this is hopelessly optimistic. SotP would have to nearly double in effectiveness to make it worth dropping Conviction/Crusade.

Also keep in mind that since the new component of SoV can crit, it will be affected by both Conviction and Crusade, meaning that they will improve in effectiveness as well.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Wardari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:59 am

theckhd wrote:
Wardari wrote:-Given the changes to SoV taking 5/5 in Seals of the Pure will likely be a very nice buff to threat.

I think this is hopelessly optimistic. SotP would have to nearly double in effectiveness to make it worth dropping Conviction/Crusade.

Also keep in mind that since the new component of SoV can crit, it will be affected by both Conviction and Crusade, meaning that they will improve in effectiveness as well.


Whoops i probably should have worded that a bit better as "hopefully" rather than "will likely". I hadn't thought of the implications of Conv/Crusade on the new SoV :)

Thanks for the input theck.

In whatever case i'm certainly looking forward to testing these new talents/abilities on the PTR :)
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Dorvan » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:25 am

Wardari wrote:On my paladin i'm sitting around 27k armor (still max of Ulduar 25 and some t7.5 items) with devo aura up, which is roughly 63/64% damage reduction (i'm at work and don't have time to check the exact number) so we're only around 11/12% off the armor cap which gives a max of 75% reduction.

So even at armor cap u can only achieve roughly 12% extra reduction to physical damage, Imp LoH will grant 10/20% to physical damage reduction instead of buffing your armor for the same amount, so it's already pretty clear it's superior.


Your math is wrong here. The Imp LoH bonus will be multiplicative with your damage reduction from armor (because these damage reduction bonuses are all multiplicative). Thus, we're talking about a 20% *relative* reduction in physical damage. If you're at 63% DR and your DR goes up to 75%, that means you're going from 37% damage taken to 25% damage taken, which is a 33% relative damage reduction. I don't believe that the current Imp LoH gives you quite that strong a bonus, but a 20% relative physical damage reduction is very much in the ballpark of what it currently provides.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby BubbaBill » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:27 am

Will be interesting to see if the changes to seals make Reckoning viable once again. It will certainly become more attractive but I don't think enough so. Maybe for trash and the inevitable heroic/naxx farming that will come with the badge changes.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby jwillet1 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:29 pm

I think the point of the LoH change to percent damage reduction is due to how close tanks are getting to armor cap. If you have Ancestral healing up and the current, live, Imp LoH might come close to or go over the armor cap.

Edit: I now realize that Ancestral Healing was also changed. However i still believe this change might have something to do with cap.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Smartos » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:56 am

Dorvan wrote:It's not at all clear that Imp LoH will be any better with the change than it is now.....I'm honestly unsure what Blizzard's intended effect is. The only thing that may make Imp LoH builds more popular in 3.2 imo is if the seal changes make SotP better than Crusade for threat.

And iLoH should be moved into tier 2 so you don't have to waste 5 talent points to get it.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Wigglytough » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:55 pm

Smartos wrote:
Dorvan wrote:It's not at all clear that Imp LoH will be any better with the change than it is now.....I'm honestly unsure what Blizzard's intended effect is. The only thing that may make Imp LoH builds more popular in 3.2 imo is if the seal changes make SotP better than Crusade for threat.

And iLoH should be moved into tier 2 so you don't have to waste 5 talent points to get it.

i think that's intentional.. as in 'you probably should be holy if you want this talent and dont wanna waste points' >.<

imo we don't need it. the new AG death proc makes up for losing a bit of survival utility and new vindication is vurry vurry attractive.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby TokenElf » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:16 am

jwillet1 wrote:I think the point of the LoH change to percent damage reduction is due to how close tanks are getting to armor cap. If you have Ancestral healing up and the current, live, Imp LoH might come close to or go over the armor cap.

Edit: I now realize that Ancestral Healing was also changed. However i still believe this change might have something to do with cap.



It is a direct response to the armor cap issue.

Essentially the talents were making tier upgrades in armor not worth as much in a relative sense.

Who cares that upgrading to T9 gives you 1% more armor reduction when you are ALWAYS at the cap already due to these talents?
The armor stat was effectively fluff after a specific point. The last thing you want is such an important stat be meaningless.

This allows those talents to still give a benefit (take less damage) while not making it so that tanks would not care about the amount of armor on the pieces. It also makes devotion aura and stoneskin totem a lot better in relation as they were starting to be wasted armor.
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Re: New talents in 3.2 - possible new build for MT.

Postby Solare » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:32 pm

Off-topic:

I'm already hitting 30k with full 25-man raid buffs (Improved Mark of the Wild, Improved Devotion Aura, Stoneskin totem, Strength of Earth totem, etc.) so the changes to the +armor abilities are a good catch by Blizz in my opinion. And as a paladin, my armor doesn't come near what a druid or DK can push. Sometimes they are really on the ball with these things, sometimes not. I'm glad this is one of the things they caught before it became an issue.

On-topic:

I don't really see the changes to Improved Lay on Hands making it any more attractive than it was before. It's doing about the same job, give or take. And I didn't spec into it before, so why should I now? The only real issue I have is whether or not I want my own Demoralizing Shout. I'll have to sacrifice threat for it, but hopefully, like Theck said, maybe they'll swap it's position with Improved Might in the Ret tree. That would be ideal. But I don't see it happening.
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