A few scraps of info about Vindication

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A few scraps of info about Vindication

Postby Arcand » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:36 pm

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1

Points out that in heroics, where the bad guys put out ridiculous amounts of melee damage, Vindication actually saves you a fair bit of pain.

He cites two trash mobs in Slave Pens/Underbog which see their damage reduced by 10% or more with the Vindication debuff.

Theras enters and proclaims that the talent sucks since everything it affects does inconsequential damage even in heroics.
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Postby Ezmoad » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:11 pm

With Vindication, was wondering about this build.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

I didn't pick up Reckoning nor One-Handed Weapon Spec in order to pick up Imp Devo Aura. I know it is a paltry talant to pick up, but if you are min/maxing yourself, shouldn't you be wanting to include this? The previous talents (Reckoning/1h spec) just increase damage/threat, which is something we definitely aren't lacking in.

Heck I was even thinking about putting the points of Precision into Improved Concentration Aura for those rare fights where we can be Silenced. That plus Stoicism is 25% resisting silence (MoV=ezmoad even better).
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Postby Lorath » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:38 am

The talent was great back in the day, but since they nerfed it long ago it has been yet another of those "ohh I remember when <insert skill/talent/whatever> was great for blablabla" things that we Paladins got used to years ago. :(

The idea of Vindication is good, the current implementation is not. No matter how good it sounds while theorycrafting, the comments Theras makes in the thread settles the matter for me. (The man is not a god but of all Paladins out there, this is one I listen to, and for good reasons)

Theras wrote:Don't talk to me like I haven't tested it in an absurd number of heroics. I have. Things that hit for non-trivial damage in Heroics aren't affected by Vindication, and trivial targets are. That makes it largely a waste.

If it affected targets of worth, yes, I would absolutely keep it in my permanent build. Right now it affects targets that I never die on, and doesn't affect targets that I do die on. Not to mention it is still vastly inferior to baseline skills any old Arms / Fury Warrior can apply.
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Postby Lore » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:32 am

The OP also mentioned that all of the bosses he came across were immune to Vindication, which makes it almost completely worthless. Extra mitigation on trash is nice, but bosses are where it really matters.
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Postby DurWrathi » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:35 pm

I wouldn’t discount Vindication as quickly as some. The ability clearly has a meaningful affect against some trash and none against bosses. However, as the original poster stated, a good deal of heroic trash hits harder than bosses. The talent is providing a mitigation positive, even if it’s not as powerful or reliable as Thunder Clap.

So what’s the opportunity cost of this mitigation boost? For me, the cost was Precision. Precision is, essentially, a passive threat increase. The more hits you land, the more Seal of Right proc’s you’ll have. But let’s face facts – threat isn’t really our issue, mitigation is. I have yet to notice a meaningful difference to my threat with or without precision. The three points in Precision are nice, but hardly necessary and, in this case, can be better spent elsewhere.

Now, to be perfectly honest, I’m not noticing a huge mitigation boost against trash since picking up Vindication nor did I really expect to. It’s a matter of a few hundred of hit points here and there – nothing more. But, we all know that a few hundred hit points can make all the difference. Personally, I prefer giving my healers that much more breathing room over a passive threat bonus I don’t need.
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Postby Lore » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:48 pm

Yes, some Heroic trash is a pain. If all you tank is Heroics, sure. But it's not Heroic trash that kills me, it's Magtheridon adds. Also, be warned that DPS catches up to your threat quickly once they start gearing out, and threat DOES become something you have to keep in mind.
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Postby Endure » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:19 pm

Lore wrote:Yes, some Heroic trash is a pain. If all you tank is Heroics, sure. But it's not Heroic trash that kills me, it's Magtheridon adds. Also, be warned that DPS catches up to your threat quickly once they start gearing out, and threat DOES become something you have to keep in mind.


Pretty much. Threat is not an issue because we have the talents and abilities to get threat without worrying much about mitigation issues. It's when we start sacrificing those threat generating abilities under the guise of "enough threat."
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