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Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

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Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby cordelia » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:23 am

Well, my little guild finally downed Yogg last night. I'm proud of them.

However, I'm suddenly faced with a case of the "what now"'s??

As I see it, we have three possible goals we can set our sights on:

(1) Algalon

(2) As many Hard Mode bosses down as possible, for gearing up.

(3) Heroic Glory of the Ulduar Raider

I know they're not mutually exclusive, however they are different.
Prioritizing (1) means we don't spend time on FL hard mode, don't spend time on XT hard mode, don't spend time on Vezax or Yogg hard modes.

Prioritizing (2) means that we don't spend time on the sillier achievements like: 4 minute Ignis, Crazy Cat Lady, Disarmed, etc.

I understand that in order to achieve Algalon, we may want to get gear from hard FL, or hard XT. But again, there are only so many raid nights/week, and time spent on the 5 boses needed to reach Algalon will get us closer to Algalon attempts, and therefore closer to his death, right? Or is Algalon a pure gear check, and we should be getting as much hard mode loot as possible as soon as possible?

Assuming that one's goal is to acquire hard mode loot, what bosses should we prioritize?
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Levantine » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:46 am

To be fair, after all the nerfing that's been done, if you can kill Yogg easy you can kill Flame Leviathan and XT hard with little to no trouble.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Rehlachs » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:09 am

(1) - Since you need Firefighter to unlock Algalon, I would not recommend focusing it when you just finished to normal content. Furthermore the first few HM that are not required for Algalon are the easiest (FL and XT, Steelbreaker is kind of required because his loot starts the questline).

(2) - In exeption of Razorscale's and Auriaya's achievements every required (for the Ironbound) non-HM achievement is easy to learn and easy to execute. Therefore you can easily combine (2) and (3).
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:12 am

The earlier you can unlock algalon, the earlier you can start learning the fight. You only get one hour a week, so its worth it to try and start getting that 1 hour in each week as soon as possible.
4-tower FL and Xt hard modes are worth doing for practice for the keeper hard modes though. It will help get everyone focused and introduced to the new difficulty level.
I'd reccomend skipping steelbreaker-last though, since that one is actually kinda tough still.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby trellian » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:13 am

Joanadark wrote:I'd reccomend skipping steelbreaker-last though, since that one is actually kinda tough still.


For us, we find steelbreaker last al lot easier to execute then molgeim last... wtb bucketload of frost mages plx...
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:16 am

Be sure you get Molgeim last, since that also drops the key for the chain, and regardless of what you do, you want someone on that chain. As Lev said, FL+4T isn't bad now (it feels about like 2 towers pre-nerfs). I'm not 100% sure XT hard is in the same category. We've been doing hard modes for 3-4 weeks now, and we had a few people not show up / disconnecting throughout our last XT hard mode kill and he went from 3%-dead through his enrage. Our first kill was also in the enrage. In 10 man, he's not bad. Actually, I just re-read your post and you said "little" guild, so if you're referring to 10 man, you probably won't have many issues (and I've heard he drops an excellent 2H on 10 man hard).

Steelbreaker last wasn't too terrible in 10 man even with 10 man gear. I don't think I even had to pop cooldowns when tanking him first in P3 (although your second tank might).

What I'd prioritize is the achievements for the meta. All the hard modes for Algalon are in there, and that'll also include the 4 minute Ignis, Crazy Cat Lady, etc. Those silly ones aren't really that hard, so it's not like you'll be wasting much time on them. Also, and I really don't mean to offend, but I wouldn't worry much about Firefighter or Algalon with only one hour of attempts. If you just recently got Yogg down, I'd worry about that when I came to it because it's more likely that it'll get nerfed than that you'll get there and have to spend weeks learning it like some guilds today.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Falibard » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:41 am

Hard mode Mimiron is going to be the least forgiving fight in Ulduar so I would focus on the hard mode fights that are easier but get people used to reacting quickly. XT's hard mode has been nerfed so it's not quite the dps check it used to be and is now more of a "gtfo out of the raid and go to where you're supposed to go to when you have the debuff" check. Thorim hard mode is another very doable one that all about positioning and execution.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby cordelia » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:25 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Actually, I just re-read your post and you said "little" guild, so if you're referring to 10 man, you probably won't have many issues (and I've heard he drops an excellent 2H on 10 man hard).


It's actually not that little, so yes, 25-mans.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:35 pm

I would quite recommend just doing the hard modes in order of difficulty. Based on our experiences I would say a rough progression (for 25-man):

FL / XT
Steelbreaker / Hodir / Thorim
Vezax / Freya
Mimiron
Algalon / Yogg (One Light)

For 10-man, the order is a bit different:
XT / Steelbreaker / Thorim / Hodir
FL / Freya / Vezax / Yogg (One Light)
Mimiron / Algalon
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Seloei » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:41 am

I wouldn't bother with disarmed / 4 min kill ignis, they will come themselves over time once everyone knows how to execute the fight and know how to play their class better. Once you can get 4 min ignis on heroic, you have the dps to do XT and Hodir for sure. Crazy Cat Lady will take a full night atleast, so skip that until it's near the last. The dwarves... do them casually, have your tanks pull them in front of the boss to burn each time his grounded, if you get any updates you do. But in reality you can get all 50 in just 1h.

Psiven's list is quite accurate imho, but i'd add Runemaster Molgeim to the first bunch on 25man, if you have enough ranged aoe dps and into the second bunch on 10man. He also drops the key quest to reach algalon.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:51 am

Hard Modes for Algalon are going to destroy my guild. We're basically a weekend 25 man guild, with 25 man raids Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Not enough people log in on other days to form up for 25 man. We also have 10 man runs on the other days. Our 10 man crew is rock solid and everyone is a skilled player. We literally walked through 10 man killing Yogg Saron in the last week in April. In 25 man we killed Yogg Saron in the first week of May. Our success is now going to be our downfall. Our 10 man group walked through Steelbreaker Last, Hodir Hard, Freya Hard, and Thorim Hard all in the next week. Then we ran into Mimiron Hard and we're still there. The 10 man group has been beating on Mimiron Hard since the beginning of May whenever we had the chance. We can get to P3 but have never seen P4. But, this isn't the major issue.

The leaders of the guild have chosen to make Algalon our goal in 25 man. After our first Yogg kill in 25, the next raid went straight to Iron Council, only downing FL and XT. We sat there for 2 and a half days wiping trying to do Steelbreaker Last, in the end the officers settled by doing Runemaster Last to get the key quest going. The rest of the instance remained uncleared that reset as we could not form up for 25 man on Monday. The next week we took out FL, XT, Kologarn, Auraiya. Then we moved to Hodir Hard and wiped for a day and a half before we 'accidentally' killed him. After this we did Thorim Hard for the rest of the raid days. The rest of the instance remained uncleared for this reset, and we still don't have any keepers down in Hard Mode for 25 man.

Every week since, its been the same thing. We had the first Yogg Saron 25 kill on the server by over a month, and since then we haven't even seen him again, and more than half the instance is uncleared every reset. There are now 4 other guilds with Yogg Saron down and they all have 2+ kills on him now. People aren't logging in anymore. People who have been with the guild since pre BC are leaving. The officers won't listen to my pleas of changing what we are doing. People enjoy server firsts, but at what cost? With only 3 days of raiding, having 2 and a half of those days be constant wiping isn't enjoyable. The GL argues that Inner Sanctum downed these in the first week with less gear than we have now, so we should be able to do it. Comparing us to one of the top guilds in the world that most likely run 7 days a week for long hours isn't fair.

We've all been through the weeks maybe months of wiping on a boss to progress. However, this was different in the past. Usually, that boss was a big roadblock to the rest of the instance and beating him meant getting further. Yes, this is similar in that we are trying to get to Algalon, but it feels like we are walking backward.

All, I can say is please don't follow our path. Hard Modes should be a goal, but they shouldn't be the only goal. There an extra thing to work for but not at the cost of everything else. I have no idea how long we will last like this.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby trellian » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:54 am

Same thing happening here, btw. Not a good thing.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:05 am

That problem should hopefully be resolved in the 3.2 Coliseum due to the multiple lockouts and both 10 and 25 Normal and Heroic modes. Consider if you'd be able to clear all the normal modes in Ulduar, and then work on the hard ones. That's what I believe they're aiming for. I've been in your situation, though. When you have the drive and 10-15 other people who do, but the other 10 or so are just kind of fillers that only show up sometimes or on farm nights. It's quite frustrating. Hope it works out well for you.
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Serelynn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:34 am

Good raid and guild leaders know when their members need a break. Typically, my guild only runs 3 nights a week for 3.5 hours a night with the last night often being unnecessary with all content cleared in 2 nights. In the push to be the Alliance first Yogg-Saron 25 kill, we added on an extra night for about 2-3 weeks of 4 night raid weeks and pushed everyone hard and got our kill. After that, we discussed where the guild was and decided that taking 2-3 weeks of doing normal mode content to farm out loot made the most sense. People raid to have fun, and while challenge is good, sometimes having some time to do easy stuff is good too and any guild leader worth their salt knows how to balance progression.

With all that said, FL25+4 and Runemaster last are easy to do. Frost mages for Runemaster make the encounter trivial, and with a bit of practice and the right strategy, FL25+4 does not take long to learn after the recent changes. :D
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Re: Post-Yogg Ulduar Priorities

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:47 am

moduspwnens wrote:That problem should hopefully be resolved in the 3.2 Coliseum due to the multiple lockouts and both 10 and 25 Normal and Heroic modes. Consider if you'd be able to clear all the normal modes in Ulduar, and then work on the hard ones. That's what I believe they're aiming for. I've been in your situation, though. When you have the drive and 10-15 other people who do, but the other 10 or so are just kind of fillers that only show up sometimes or on farm nights. It's quite frustrating. Hope it works out well for you.


I too hope it works out, but I doubt we will make it to the Coliseum at this rate. Its not so much lack of drive or fillers or weak players. We have skilled players. Normal mode Heroic content was just a matter of learning the fights and executing for us. The problem is we are trying to do hard modes without being fully geared out. Yes, this is possible. But, its not just a matter of learning and execution with our current gear level. If no one makes a mistake, I see it at best 20% chance that we get the kill. We are very close. Its a matter of 15 to 20 seconds on Hodir and the last 10 to 15% of Thorim's health. We might get that perfect try and down the boss. But, we don't have the luxury of top in the world guilds with 6 to 7 days of raid time. They can get a kill with 20 to 30 tries a day for 2 or 3 days and still finish the instance. That last 10 to 15% would easily be made up by gearing out by farming the instance. All the wiping has beaten all the drive out of us, and its just got even worse. The Paladin that was getting the fragments for the legendary has quit, and he was just 7 fragments short.
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