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3.2 change questions

Postby Xorlandu » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Have a few questions for fellow theory crafters on what will be a good spec for 3.2 with the changes as they are listed now.

Mainly with the change to SoV and the drop in Shield of Righteousness damage will taking the 6 points out of the ret tree (crusade and conviction for me) be worth it to grab SoTP and 1+ points in reckoning.

And another side question of how useful do people think vindication will be after it gets changed to -ap.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:04 pm

Well, I'd be interested to see if SotP helps out on threat in a build like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMo
It drops a bunch of crit, but the added SotP damage plus Reckoning with the new SoV/SoC could be really powerful. Unless you put 2 points into another talent, such as Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian, 3 points would be the minimum in Reckoning to progress down the tree...which is all well and good. Back in TBC when the Reckoning theorycrafting was done, 3/5 Reckoning was the best choice for uptime without sacrificing other talents to the last two points.

And Vindication will definitely be worth getting. This will put a "Demoralizing Shout"-type debuff on the boss/target. The usefulness of this is on par with Judgments of the Just.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Dokidoki » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:05 pm

I don't think vindication will be worth picking up for PVE tanks as the buff is not going to stack with demoralizing shout or roar, which can be provided by other classes.

Also, did you overlook the block value buff? Shield slam is getting nerfed to compensate for them DOUBLING all block value on all BV items.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Xorlandu » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:09 pm

And look at any prot pally tanking hardmodes in ulduar, my block value from items is 0 unless I'm using my 8.5 gloves which makes it 68 so doubleing that doesn't do much.

But yeah I saw that too ;)
Last edited by Xorlandu on Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:11 pm

Dokidoki wrote:I don't think vindication will be worth picking up for PVE tanks as the buff is not going to stack with demoralizing shout or roar, which can be provided by other classes.

Also, did you overlook the block value buff? Shield slam is getting nerfed to compensate for them DOUBLING all block value on all BV items.

I disagree about Vindication...you won't always have another player there who can do demoralizing shout/roar. Using your logic, Judgments of the Just would be a wasted two points since you can have a warrior there to t-clap :-/

You should be self-sufficient in your survivability buffs. Judging will reduce attack speed, simply attacking will reduce attack power. The patch notes state that this will be a consistent debuff and being that it is applied with auto-swings (thus no GCD or other ability to press) I'd say that it's better than demo shout/roar.

As for the shield thing...yes, I think the OP noticed the ShotR "nerf" (jury's still out on this one). The change in spell mechanics for seals may still shift what is more important to boost threat-wise, though.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Dokidoki » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:16 pm

I think you misread the last part of my post.

At any rate I was more questioning whether it would warrant giving up points in holy for improved seals or threat talents in ret, but on reflection, some crit here and there isn't going to make bosses chomp on my dps. I suppose I'm a little iffy on vindication due to us never having a mechanic like that to play with, so I can't really say what kind of benefit it would grant me.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:20 pm

WTB Demo or Sunder ability. It's not uncommon at all for me to have neither of those available, so the change to Vindication is a good step.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby baneoftruth » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:24 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:WTB Demo or Sunder ability. It's not uncommon at all for me to have neither of those available, so the change to Vindication is a good step.

A Sunder ability would have to be somewhere in the ret tree, if anywhere...all of our damage as prot except for weapon damage from auto-swings is holy damage, making sunder quite pointless...
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:40 pm

baneoftruth wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:WTB Demo or Sunder ability. It's not uncommon at all for me to have neither of those available, so the change to Vindication is a good step.

A Sunder ability would have to be somewhere in the ret tree, if anywhere...all of our damage as prot except for weapon damage from auto-swings is holy damage, making sunder quite pointless...


Sunder is a huge buff to melee dps. The effect can be applied by a warrior, rogue, or BM hunter with a specific pet. It's not unusual for us to have none of those available.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Dokidoki » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:41 pm

it's not for you, it's for the raid. I nearly got shelved by a progression guild because they wanted to have a prot warrior to put up sunders before. Not saying it was right, but people want the buff, and dps doesn't want to put it up.

Also, just because it isn't good for us doesn't mean it can't be in our tree. (parry talent in ret comes to mind)
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Meyrinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:57 pm

Dokidoki wrote:I don't think vindication will be worth picking up for PVE tanks as the buff is not going to stack with demoralizing shout or roar, which can be provided by other classes.

Also, did you overlook the block value buff? Shield slam is getting nerfed to compensate for them DOUBLING all block value on all BV items.


Even if you are stacking BV on gear, its not anywhere near compensating for the ShoR nerf. You get more of your BV from your Strength and Shield then you do from items. From my initial glance at my balanced tanking set, I'm going to lose about 20% of my ShoR damage. I only get about 200 BV from items. The added damage to SoV will compensate for the lost threat in ShoR. ShoR is by far too much of our threat at this point. I've seen it as high at 35% of my damage on some fights. Vindication will be the better debuff as it will be a proc. Demo Shout/Roar take GCDs away from whomever is casting them.
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Thels » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:07 am

Indeed, the "someone else can apply it" completely fails, as:

A) You're not always on the same target. If you were, you wouldn't need multiple tanks in the first place.

B) We will have a much easier time applying the debuff than warriors will, so when we are attacking the same target, it's warriors that won't have to worry about keeping the debuff up, not us.

Thunderclap/Judgement of the Just and Demo Shout/Vindication are for our own survivability. Not having to rely on other tanks for this is a good thing!

Sunder Armor is a DPS boost. We aren't worse at tanking just for not putting this particular DPS boost up.

Any warrior can apply sunder armor, so it makes sense to bring one warrior. No reason for that warrior to be the tank. Instead, we provide +3% crit chance. Just different types of DPS boost (assuming you didn't go for LoH talents or are able to rely on Retris so much that you didn't need to take JotC).
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Re: 3.2 change questions

Postby Rehlachs » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:43 am

Meyrinn wrote:Even if you are stacking BV on gear, its not anywhere near compensating for the ShoR nerf. You get more of your BV from your Strength and Shield then you do from items


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