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[Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:02 pm

I know I have a long way to go on mastering this. I thought I was doing a good FCFS execution, and then saw that another ret paladin in our Hodir kill had about 2x the damage I did. I think I need the muscle memory to be better.


Hodir is a bad parse fight. Its 1000% RNG on who gets multiple storm power when their cooldowns are popped and heroism up.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:16 am

Joanadark wrote:
I know I have a long way to go on mastering this. I thought I was doing a good FCFS execution, and then saw that another ret paladin in our Hodir kill had about 2x the damage I did. I think I need the muscle memory to be better.


Hodir is a bad parse fight. Its 1000% RNG on who gets multiple storm power when their cooldowns are popped and heroism up.

What Joana said. Sometimes on Hodir you could do 5000 dps, sometimes you could do 9000 DPS, Maybe you were able to get all the storm powers, RNG crit a lot, stand in a moonkin beam half the fight, and have all the ranged applying Singed. Maybe you didn't get a single storm power and everyone was training snow falls on the melee the entire time. Hodir is about as random as it gets.

If you're going to compare against another ret paladin, pick a fight with relatively low RNG. XT002 isn't too bad if your guild is doing it correctly and neither of you are hitting the pummeler. Ignis is also pretty good if neither of you get thrown in the pot. The key significance is you're limiting the circumstances that occur to both of you, so if ignis is kited out of your consration it's also likely to be moved out of his - or he's doing something smarter maybe. Thorim, the second phase where you only fight him, is as close to a "patchwerk" fight you can probably get. The problem is it isn't very long and you'd have to adjust the data for personal CDs.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:07 am

Heh. Another comparison would be, H.Strat with another ret paladin (actually 4 paladins and a mage ;)). I outgear him by ... about a tier, and he was pretty much tied with me on damage. I think it's that I have piss-poor enchants, rings, and cloak/neck. ;)
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Lore » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:08 am

Ret to Ret, Vezax is a pretty good fight. The 20% haste debuff hurts, but it hurts the other guy too, and there's absolutely no variation in how you're supposed to do the fight.

That's not going to be an accurate indication of player skill, since half of raiding is dealing with the random stuff bosses throw at you, but it will give an idea of who can put out the better numbers by drooling on their keyboard in the direction of Crusader Strike.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:34 pm

Lore wrote:Ret to Ret, Vezax is a pretty good fight. The 20% haste debuff hurts, but it hurts the other guy too, and there's absolutely no variation in how you're supposed to do the fight.

I'm not sure about that. I have to leave melee range now and then for hand of sacrifice, and sacred shields / etc on the tank. Not to mention Divine shield/Bop with Divine Sacrifice.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:39 pm

When implementing FCFS, I often see something like Consecration or judgement available, but CS will be off cooldown in about half a second (and thus would be idle while I am in the GCD). Should I use the other ability, or should I wait the half second (or second) and use CS (or another higher-priority item)? For example, CS or DS are often about-to-be-ready when Consecrate is next in my available things, but casting Consecrate would start a GCD which would delay a CS or DS.

I've been using SHIT (serious help in timing ;)), but am thinking of swapping to Fortexorcist so I can watch the cooldowns that way.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Lore » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:42 pm

Elsie wrote:
Lore wrote:Ret to Ret, Vezax is a pretty good fight. The 20% haste debuff hurts, but it hurts the other guy too, and there's absolutely no variation in how you're supposed to do the fight.

I'm not sure about that. I have to leave melee range now and then for hand of sacrifice, and sacred shields / etc on the tank. Not to mention Divine shield/Bop with Divine Sacrifice.


And the other Ret isn't doing all that? Your other Ret is a jerk.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Keladin » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:13 pm

Do most of you guys raid with multiple rets? It seems having 2 is the flavor of our guild

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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:48 pm

When implementing FCFS, I often see something like Consecration or judgement available, but CS will be off cooldown in about half a second (and thus would be idle while I am in the GCD). Should I use the other ability, or should I wait the half second (or second) and use CS (or another higher-priority item)? For example, CS or DS are often about-to-be-ready when Consecrate is next in my available things, but casting Consecrate would start a GCD which would delay a CS or DS.

I've been using SHIT (serious help in timing ), but am thinking of swapping to Fortexorcist so I can watch the cooldowns that way.


Always use something that is off cooldown rather than wait for soemthing that is ALMOST off cooldown. Dead time in your rotation is bad.

I'd reccommend Watcher rather than ForteXorcist.
You can actually input a priority list for your abilities in Watcher and it will stack the icons on the timeline in that order, so its always apparent what to use out of what is up. It also shows the GCD.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Elsie » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:57 am

Always use something that is off cooldown rather than wait for soemthing that is ALMOST off cooldown. Dead time in your rotation is bad.

Waiting is okay if it's under 0.5 or less. That's the amount given in rawr parsing. It's all part of the latency/human factors.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:52 am

It's all part of the latency/human factors.


I suppose.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:03 am

Elsie wrote:
Always use something that is off cooldown rather than wait for soemthing that is ALMOST off cooldown. Dead time in your rotation is bad.

Waiting is okay if it's under 0.5 or less. That's the amount given in rawr parsing. It's all part of the latency/human factors.


Rawr allows you specify a delay due to latency, but *intentionally* waiting for an ability to come off cooldown when you already have one available is a bad idea/dps loss.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Fedaykin98 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:12 pm

So Watcher is better than Serious Help?

I don't use anything at the moment, but I've considered picking something up. Is there anything that would work well for both Ret and Elemental Shaman?
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:20 pm

Watcher works for every class.

I also dislike Serious Help in Timing. I can't really put a finger on why, i just dont like it.
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Re: [Ret] FCFS Rotation Discussion

Postby Treck » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:56 am

Ive never rly PvEd as retri that much to bother, however it seems for hardmodes when were taking away a tank, we always replace with a DPS.
But am i correct in that Crusaderstrike aswell as divine storm triggers a seal procc?
I was watching Recount steady and for long after a few Vezax tries (trials healing the boss and killing the raid, so took a few tries...)
And when i compared myself to a full time retripally, his dps was just slightly higher, gear is the same except hes got 4xT8.5 while i only have offsett ulduar 25man gear (he was also str fed aswell as AP flask while i was cheap with fishfeast and tankingflask still).
But the main differance was that he did way way more seal dmg than i did, and then meele was 2nd dmg done, and crusader strike 3rd, while i had seal,meele, judgement. Im not sure if he didnt try to much or if thats the best he plays, but i got a bit disapointed, his dps uptime was prolly not the best, aswell as when and how he used his CDs (im almost certain he keeps a steady FCFS rotation, nomatter if the boss moves or not :S)
My basic thought was that recount clearly showed Judgement to be highest dmg ability, thus that was no1 prio, as long as CS libram was up. However a sealprocc from divine storm and crusaderstrike would make the ability do more total dmg than a simple judgement.
Only problem is consecration :S
I sure never use it if i know the boss has to move, and i got other abilities to use. But atm, i value it lowest prio, but im not sure thats correct :S You can only see the ticks from consecration on recount and my combat text adds up the numbers in a strange way i dont rly understand.
But just like Joanadark said, clever modification of the FCFS rotation will result in more dmg done. Its pretty much the same as prot tbh. If your moving a lot and such you will ofc have to modify your rotation to do max tps.
But about the latency issue, doesnt it que abilities if you use then right before you can? or is that only for casts?
I spamm all mybuttons 10times durin a GCD, and it feels like a waste waiting half a sec or half a GCD to use a higher dmg output ability when something else is off CD, but im not overly experienced as ret yet :S
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