Judgement overwriting eachother

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Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Albani » Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:18 am

Tanking Runemaster last night, killing him first for the "Steelbreaker, I choose you" achievement, I noticed that one of our retpallies was judging wisdom, overwrites my judgement of wisdom.

Now I don't know why he was doing it, in fact it might be our holy palas doing it(doubt it), but after getting libram from general, judgement isn't that high on my threat prio list, I mainly do it for the 20% attack speed debuff.

Is it supposed to get overwritten? And if so, does the 20% attack speed debuff still apply?

Never noticed it falling of before, but then I was using the badge libram, and at first I thought it was just falling off real quickly by itself, until I noticed that everytime it got overwritten by another JoW.

Working as intended?
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Mutley » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:04 am

Sadly but yes. Only one of each judgement can be on a mob.

It's probably your holy paladins since they can no longer do JoJ from range. And ret should be doing light, not wisdom. I usually tell the holy paladin(s) to keep up wisdom, and I just use JoJ then.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Worldie » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:28 am

The debuff gets overwritten and JotJ fades, so i recommend using a judgement that you are 100% sure wont get overwritten. Eventually, Justice.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Awyndel » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:44 am

whoa there, is this discussion still going on?!

I thought some guys said that jotj does not get overwritten anymore?!

I'd really like some facts on this one, since i have been judging wisdom since forever :?
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby theckhd » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:53 am

I did some testing on it in this thread. The conclusion I came to was pretty much summed up in this post:

Theck wrote:It seems like in the former case, there's always 2 JoW buffs on the boss, while in the latter case there's only one. But I can't yet figure out why it's not consistent. I'd expect it to act the same way each time, and it's quite clearly not doing that. Until I can figure out what's causing the difference (debuff limit?), the most accurate thing I can say is that sometimes it does overwrite, and sometimes it doesn't, even on the same boss.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Maswin » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:27 pm

On a side note, I just love asking people "Why don't you have JotJ" to their reply of "it doesn't work on boss mobs" or "its for pvp".

I try to educate from then on (in the nicest possible way) but tend to just get ignorance or flamed.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby PsiVen » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:53 pm

I've had times where it seems that JoL procs from two different paladins are healing someone at the same time, and I have no idea if JotJ is up. So I always just use JoJ unless we're missing a ret.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Solare » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:04 pm

FERRARO, or whomever the hell that person or persons are, had a really good post about that awhile ago that I took to heart and have put into practice. It's very true that in a 25-raid situation, you really should have:

Ret pallies judge Light
Holy pallies judge Wisdom
Prot pallies judge Justice

The more paladins you have, the more important this becomes. And a team of two paladins has the most flexibility in what judgement to use. But as the judgements fly everywhere in a 25-man with 6 paladins, you gotta make sure your particular debuff doesn't get overwritten. Any tankadin worth his salt knows that the 20% attack speed debuff is one of the best mitigation talents in our arsenal. Don't miss out on yours.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Spamdrew » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:32 pm

Spellcasting DPS would disagree with you. Holy pallies will not be keeping an optimal uptime on J Wisdom and it contributes a significant amount of mana back to the raid especially hunters. As such it is a lot better to have protection pallies judge wisdom and ret + holy judge light because the slight reduction in light healing (ret judge a lot more often than holy) is not a big deal.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby rokkon » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:28 am

Spamdrew wrote:Spellcasting DPS would disagree with you. Holy pallies will not be keeping an optimal uptime on J Wisdom and it contributes a significant amount of mana back to the raid especially hunters. As such it is a lot better to have protection pallies judge wisdom and ret + holy judge light because the slight reduction in light healing (ret judge a lot more often than holy) is not a big deal.


I actually agree with this. Our holy pallies do not keep up wisdom 100% and our hunters are the first ones to point that out. However our ret pally gets his nose out of joint if anyone but him judges light so I still end up judging justice for the most part. Of course our ret pally also refuses to judge wisdom when he is the only pally with judgements on the boss (me on adds and holy not there for instance) even on boss fights where raid damage is minimal. I don't get it.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby draknar » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:50 am

I'd love it if judgement type would be added to pally-power. I don't want to get into a whole discussion each time I ask someone to judge something different. It would be nice to just be able to tell people what to do.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Rdx » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:14 am

I actually cleared this up on the official wow forums.

Okay just did some testing.

So this is it.

Myself and a holy paladin went to Zul Drak and engaged Thrym. After 10 mins (using /sw 10:00) I DI'ed the paladin.

I kept my judgment up 100% of the time and the holy paladin never judged.

Thrym's count of how many melee attacks he had was 300 after 10:01. Not bad.

After I had got ressed and buffed with the same buffs we repeated the same thing. This time every time I judged light the holy paladin cast light on it as well. We repeated this 30 times in 10 mins (as the debuff is 20 secs).

After 10 mins and 11 seconds exited combat and Thrym's count was at 303.

Now you must remember that we judged 30 times with a possible error margin on 1 sec per judge. Ends up to 30 secs with reduced speed.

Given that, if judgments did overrule the prot judgment we should of seen him hit around 375 times (300/80 *100) but he did not.

There for this shows that although the debuff is refreshed and is another paladins debuff it does not in fact remove the 20% speed reduction.

As always I urge others to repeat this and compare results.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Varmin » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:28 am

One thing I notice is since our dps dk runs with imp Icy Touch, that + a ret's JoW seems to always knock off my own JoW.

Theck's post though is very strange indeed.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:02 am

Rdx wrote:As always I urge others to repeat this and compare results.

You could have just used the UnitAttackSpeed("target") function via a macro, which would give you your answer in a few seconds. There's a macro given in the thread I linked.

That one test isn't really conclusive either way though, since you got a negative result.

The fact that in my testing I did see it drop off is conclusive - it shows that it is possible for the JotJ debuff to drop off if someone else is applying the same Judgement you are.

What has to be determined yet is exactly what causes it to drop off and what doesn't.
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Re: Judgement overwriting eachother

Postby Rdx » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:30 pm

theckhd wrote:That one test isn't really conclusive either way though, since you got a negative result.


True. As for what causes it to drop off and what not you did your testing on Freya Mini bosses, right? Well thats not exactly sound it self as other players have debuffs going up at the same time. I didn't know about that Function in the WoW API. Interestingly I went back to the mob that I did my testing on and he was not effected by my judgment, at all....


Follow up. In MC with the a Holy Paladin, and you are correct. Judgments are indeed getting over ridden. When this happen I could see the attack speed decrease. On that note we both have [Improved Judgements], in case that has a issue with anything.
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