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10 vs 25, General questions

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10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Dakiros » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:27 am

My guild has cleared up through Yogg plus a couple hard modes on 10 and we've been debating hosting 25 man pugs like we used to do for Naxx so I am doing some investigating to see how much of a change this will actually be. For those that have experience in both can you give your general thoughts on the differences between the fights? How many tanks do you take? Healers? Do the fights with "tricks" still work? For example tanking Ignis in front of the water while an offtank just tanks all the adds, or tanking XT on one side of the room so you only get trash from 2 piles. I'll be going through the specifics of each fight, just curious of the general thoughts of the folks here.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Serelynn » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:57 am

3 tanks, 6-8 healers is pretty safe to start. We run with 2.5 tanks and 5-6 healers these days. Most tricks work, but be aware that the damage output on boss encounters is much higher and it's likely that a lot of it isn't survivable until you are geared out unless you do the fight the "normal way." Boss health is usually more than 2.5x the health a boss has in 10 man, so watch for that as well when bosses go from 8m health to 30m health.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Treck » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:01 am

Tanking ignis aswell as XT works the same in 10man and 25man.
However even with the 4min kill on 25man ignis, he would have 4? (or he activates them every 45sec or so not sure) or so adds up, thats pretty heavy dmg on the MT to handle.
We usually run with 3 tanks and like 6-7 healers i think (not 100% sure on that tho)
3tanks isnt usefull for all fights, but we usually have a kitty and a DK, able to swap to dps back and forth for fights. The only fight id recomment 4tanks for would prolly be thorim, if your new to it that is.
The biggest differance is that the HP scales much higher than your players. Thorim arena is a good example, even with more ppl and they have more hp, they live more then 3 times as long than in 10man (commoners in arena gets 2shotted in 10man tho).
Overall, personal dps requirement for 25man is higher than in 10man (but more buffs and maybe flasks if your not using that for 10man)
If you are like 2x10man guilds "pugging" togheter a 25man group you should do pretty fine, since ppl know the fights they just have to push a bit more. If you got 15 ppl completely new to the fights, it might be hard going far.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Seloei » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:09 am

the biggest difference is damage done and health, it's a quite big jump from 10->25
All the bosses, except for ignis can be done the same was as in 10man, normal modes that is.

ignis activates an add every 30s so by the time for the 405s achievement you would have a LOT up.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Kishandra » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:52 am

I host a 25man pug for our guild's alts + friends, over the course of 2x 3hours per week. We just got Vezax this Saturday.

The 25man encounters scale a larger rate than you'd normally think, especially adds. For example, pretty much every single mob with the exception of Yogg-Saron himself in his encounter has almost exactly five times more hp. Crushers 2 mil vs 400k, disguised tentacles at 40k vs 8k, etc. On the other hand, most boss mob scaling seems to be pretty decent, around three times as much (XT may be an exception, he goes from 5 mil to 22.5).

Almost everything remains the same in 25 vs 10, except with bigger numbers. So you can't do the Ignis thing, but the XT trick is fine. Two big exceptions - Hodir has 8 npcs to help you vs 4 in normal, and Auriaya has 4 sanctum defenders vs 2 in normal. The pull is significantly more complicated in 25s.

If you gearcheck and boot idiots I'm sure you guys will clear the first six or seven bosses without much difficulty.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby MrDuck » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:48 pm

Well, my guild is mostly focused on 25s, and i occasionally take some of the top members and do some 10man hardmodes.
From what it seems to me (may be affected by having high variety of member qualities, some are top-notch players, inner sanctum could be jealous!:P, and some are, well, mediocre.), 25 normal modes are in some cases harder than 10man hardmodes.

For Ignis, I wouldn't recommend not shattering adds unless you have some pretty good DPS and a well geared tank(in the 25man). It's definitely quite doable, but it seems risky to me, and for some reason takes us more time to kill the boss that way. We're at about the 4min mark doing it the normal way with 4 scorch positions, and our tries with scorching the water took around 5 usually, no idea why.

We haven't ever tried tanking XT on a side, but I believe I've read it works just fine. Other than that, there aren't many differences. From top of my head, the only things would be Mimiron's plasma blast being actually a threatening thing in 25, Hodir's frozen blows being remotely dangerous AoE, and Kologarn hits like a half-loaded truck when you get a debuff up, also, you needa switch tanks on Kologarn as soon as one gets 2nd debuff, or else he'll start hitting like a fully loaded truck, and combined with that shockwave from left hand, he can possibly oneshot a tank.
Auriaya's cats have to be offtanked in 25, you can probably tank 3 at once without cooldowns, but it'll hurt, unline these 2 kittens in 10man.
Thorim's gauntlet is much, MUCH slower than in 10man, and you can' take too many players from the arena so you don't get overwhelmed by adds.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Belloc » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:31 pm

10-man
Razorscale: 2 tanks
Ignis: 1 tank, no add killing
XT-002 (normal and hard): 1 tank
Kologarn: 1 tank
Iron Council (normal and hard) 2 tanks
Auraiya: 2 tanks
Hodir (normal and hard): 1 tank (2 pieces of FR gear + aura)
Thorim (normal and hard): 2 tanks
Freya (normal and hard): 2 tanks, but can be done with 1
Mimiron (normal and hard): 1 tank
Vezax (normal and hard): 1 tank, 2 tanks can be smoother for healers on hard mode
Yogg Saron (normal and one light): 1 tank

25-man (no hard mode info)
Flame Leviathan: 5 tanks (lol, get it?)
Razorscale: 3 tanks (2 can work, 3 is comfortable).
Ignis: 2-3 tanks (3rd is a backup for adds), killing all adds
XT-002: 2 tanks
Kologarn: 3 tanks, 2 rotating on boss, one on adds full-time
Iron Council: 2-3 tanks (2 is perfectly safe, assuming adequate healing, but 3 allows a safe interrupt on brundir)
Auriaya: 3-4 (MT holds boss + add, 1 tank holds 1 add, 1 tank holds 2 adds. If 4 tanks, then have the MT only holding the boss. This pull can be very difficult on 25-man, so... figure out how to handle it before attempting to pug it)
Hodir: 1 tank (2 pieces of FR gear + aura)
Thorim: 3 tanks (1 in gauntlet, 2 in arena. Sheep a guard during the first and second gauntlet pulls)
Freya: 2-3 tanks (2 is perfectly safe, but 3 allows for more comfort)
Mimiron: 2-3 tanks (3 tanks allows for each tank to use one of their own cooldowns in phase 2. 2 tanks requires tank cooldown management, which can be a little much for some raids)
Vezax: 1 tank
Yogg Saron: 2-3 tanks (2 tanks makes the later phases, particularly phase 2, much better... but makes phase 1 more difficult)


As far as healers go... 7 is a good number for almost every fight in 25-man. Vezax, however, may require additional healers, depending on the quality of your raid. Yogg is harder to execute with 7 healers than it is with 5-6.
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Re: 10 vs 25, General questions

Postby Donahu » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:39 pm

Belloc wrote:10-man
Razorscale: 2 tanks
Ignis: 1 tank, no add killing
XT-002 (normal and hard): 1 tank
Kologarn: 1 tank
Iron Council (normal and hard) 2 tanks
Auraiya: 2 tanks
Hodir (normal and hard): 1 tank (2 pieces of FR gear + aura)
Thorim (normal and hard): 2 tanks
Freya (normal and hard): 2 tanks, but can be done with 1
Mimiron (normal and hard): 1 tank
Vezax (normal and hard): 1 tank, 2 tanks can be smoother for healers on hard mode
Yogg Saron (normal and one light): 1 tank

25-man (no hard mode info)
Flame Leviathan: 5 tanks (lol, get it?)
Razorscale: 3 tanks (2 can work, 3 is comfortable).
Ignis: 2-3 tanks (3rd is a backup for adds), killing all adds
XT-002: 2 tanks
Kologarn: 3 tanks, 2 rotating on boss, one on adds full-time
Iron Council: 2-3 tanks (2 is perfectly safe, assuming adequate healing, but 3 allows a safe interrupt on brundir)
Auriaya: 3-4 (MT holds boss + add, 1 tank holds 1 add, 1 tank holds 2 adds. If 4 tanks, then have the MT only holding the boss. This pull can be very difficult on 25-man, so... figure out how to handle it before attempting to pug it)
Hodir: 1 tank (2 pieces of FR gear + aura)
Thorim: 3 tanks (1 in gauntlet, 2 in arena. Sheep a guard during the first and second gauntlet pulls)
Freya: 2-3 tanks (2 is perfectly safe, but 3 allows for more comfort)
Mimiron: 2-3 tanks (3 tanks allows for each tank to use one of their own cooldowns in phase 2. 2 tanks requires tank cooldown management, which can be a little much for some raids)
Vezax: 1 tank
Yogg Saron: 2-3 tanks (2 tanks makes the later phases, particularly phase 2, much better... but makes phase 1 more difficult)


As far as healers go... 7 is a good number for almost every fight in 25-man. Vezax, however, may require additional healers, depending on the quality of your raid. Yogg is harder to execute with 7 healers than it is with 5-6.


I'd agree with almost all of your choices here. I'd cut down to 6 healers for every fight, seven seems overkill. On some, we drop to 5 but thats specifics. Hrm, being a PUG though, 7 would be safe. Doubt you run into any enrage timers this way, even pug ones.

10m Auriya - Just solo tank it, we left cats up and did 1 tank, 3 healers, 6 dps just fine.
10m Kologarn - Hrm, you don't use 2? The adds have a constant AoE I thought so they'd be raping melee if tanked on the boss by the one tank?

25m Thorim - 1 tank in arena, 2 in hall? Backwards from what we run. It seems a bit much to tank Champions in the middle of everything else in the Arena and if hallway tank can not handle two mobs at once...
25 Mimiron - Tanks use cd's in p2? We bring 2-3 as well, but wasn't aware of CD useage in p2. We rotate CD's on a single tank during P1 if that is what you are referring to. Less possibilities of movement from tauntage.

Other than that, I'd agree with everything else said!
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