Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Epimer » Fri May 15, 2009 4:07 am

Scottzirra wrote:Perhaps you misunderstand. Allow me to provide an armory link (only ScottZirra in the game)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drak%27Tharon&cn=Scottzirra&gn=Exodus


For someone extolling the virtues of EH stacking, that's a pretty odd meta choice :P Also, that parry gem in your chest has to go.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby theckhd » Fri May 15, 2009 7:50 am

Scottzirra wrote:Completely unbuffed I am combined 39% dodge/parry. My main point is that I think it is foolish to spend itemization points on these at this point given the DR. Not to mention that I am already over block cap, and adding more avoidance in place of BV would push that block rating off the table, and would therefore make it also wasted itemization. Given a 40% avoidance rate, the odds that I will actually take 2 back to back 30k's is essentially low enough to not worry about.

Wait, what? 40% avoidance rate means 60% chance to be hit, and thus a 0.6*0.6 = 0.36 = 36% chance that two successive attacks both hit you (and a 21% chance to take 3 in a row). With many of the bosses hitting for 20+k, that can easily be fatal, especially if environmental factors inhibit your healers (which is the most common way that I die - they have to move out of something and then can't get the heals off in time).

How exactly is 36% "not worth worrying about." Over the course of a 5-minute fight, a boss with a 2-second swing timer will attack you 150 times. You are virtually guaranteed to take at least 2 hits in a row at some point during this time. If you don't believe me, try calculating the probability:
P(taking 2 or more hits successively) = 1 - P(never taking more than 2 hits sequentially)
= 1 - sum_k [ (probability of taking k hits and N-k misses)*(# of strings with k non-adjacent hits)]
= 1 - sum_k [ p^k * q^(N-k) * (N-k+1 choose k) ], for N=150 and k=0..75 (k>75 guarantees that you take two hits in a row, obviously).

Let's be generous and assume you have 60% total avoidance, or p=0.4 and q=1-p=0.6. The result is 0.999999998 (the sum evaluates to 2 x 10^-9). In other words, the probability is effectively 1.0 out to 9 decimal places. You would need to drop your chance to be hit to less than 19% before the chance of never taking 2 or more hits in a row rises to 1%.

Scottzirra wrote:And I still operate under the assumption that my incoming heals are fairly constant, with the exception of timed boss specials, which means that dropping 10% off of EVERY attack (and lets be honest it is closer to 20% on a lot of fights) will allow my healers to go longer than if I were an avoidance tank.

This is generally not a good assumption, as I said earlier most tank deaths are due to damage spikes that temporarily exceed your incoming heal rate, or periods of lower-than-usual incoming heal rates. See below.

Scottzirra wrote:As an avoidance tank, you tend to require no heals for a period, then require massive heals, and then no heals again. The problem is that your healers cannot predict this incoming damage, and therefore must heal as if you were always in the period requiring more heals. By reducing all incoming melee attacks by 10-20%, and gearing in favor of this, I have allowed for my healers to have a predictable tank to heal, and therefore be more efficient.

Generally your healers are always proactively healing anyway. Most bosses that matter have fast enough swing timers that if they wait for you to take the first hit, their heal won't land by the second. 10-20% is not really enough to change this playstyle, since two hits plus any environmental damage will still kill you.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying block is terrible; it's solid damage mitigation against physical and blockable elemental attacks, and it does make us take more consistent damage, which is a good thing. But in terms of TTL and EH calculations, avoidance should be simply better, at least in the cases where block is only mitigating 10-20% of the attack.

Your point, as it were, is that taking predictable damage is somehow "better" than taking spike damage. The problem is that it's not true in all situations. If you're getting more Heals Per Second (HPS) than Damage Taken Per Second (DTPS), and your healers aren't in danger of running out of mana due to the length of the fight, then I, and most others here will agree with you.

Unfortunately, that just isn't the case in real encounters. Healers have to move out of fire, run out of mana, die, and so forth. These and other unplanned events lead to spikes in both DTPS (you stand in the fire) and HPS (healer has to move, and can't heal). It's those short periods of large (DTPS - HPS) differential that tend to kill tanks. In those cases, avoidance tends to win out because it reduces incoming DTPS by more than block does for large hits, since it scales with hit size and block doesn't. Statistically speaking, anyway. Obviously there's a crossover "hit size" where block becomes better than avoidance for this, but it will be for very low hit sizes, where block is considerable (40+% or 50+% mitigation).

I still have yet to see compelling evidence to support an avoidance vs BV arguement.

Hopefully this post has addressed that problem.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Lost » Tue May 19, 2009 9:49 pm

All said and done about BV/BR, I feel that the main topic of this thread has not been properly addressed. That is, where to take a point and pick up Aura Mastery. If not, why?

Majiben said that it's a shitty survival cooldown that scales with nothing at all. I partially agree with this statement; while I feel it's not complete shit, situations where it would be beneficial are few and far between thus making it not really worth taking a point out of other, far more beneficial talents to invest in.

Additionally, has it been established that Aura Mastery increases the healing effect of a talented Devotion Aura? If it does, +12% healing recieved and 3614 extra armor (if I'm not mistaken) for 10 seconds doesn't seem TOO bad to me, I just wouldn't drop anything else for it.

Just my two cents and trying to get this thread back on topic.

*edited for the myriad of spelling issues and clarity
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Tue May 19, 2009 10:03 pm

AM doesn't scale with any talent. None. Zip. Zil.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Candiru » Tue May 26, 2009 8:35 am

Back when I was contemplating this spec, Ignis was HARD.

So I thought an aura mastery CD to help the healers out (since it allows them to cast into flame jets safely) would be a good plan.

Its also useful on Hodir for frozen blows, with the extra 130 FrostResistance.

The extra armour CD is nice, but its not really amazing, just something you can use every time its up to take slightly less damage, or use at the same time as shieldwall to get a little bit more survivability.

It works well with crusader aura to run away REALLY FAST though :)

As it is, its probably not worth taking a point from anywhere for it, unless you want to glyph exorcism and replace every other judgement with exorcism and drop the point there. That's only a viable choice with the Vexaz libram though.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Jonesy » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:12 am

Candiru wrote:I was thinking of taking both these talents for ignis. I can aura mastery a flame jets to stop my healers being interupted, and I can boost my armour as an extra CD.

The only question is where to pillage the spare point from?


GbtL is the weakest threat and mitigation talent out of the three you list. In addition it's the only threat talent that scales inversely with gearing for threat.

Majiben wrote:[Aura Mastery] scales with no talents at all. No armor no nothing. It's a pathetic survival cooldown in general.


It does in fact scale with the +armour from Imp Dev Aura.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:59 pm

Jonesy wrote:
Candiru wrote:I was thinking of taking both these talents for ignis. I can aura mastery a flame jets to stop my healers being interupted, and I can boost my armour as an extra CD.

The only question is where to pillage the spare point from?


GbtL is the weakest threat and mitigation talent out of the three you list. In addition it's the only threat talent that scales inversely with gearing for threat.

Majiben wrote:[Aura Mastery] scales with no talents at all. No armor no nothing. It's a pathetic survival cooldown in general.


It does in fact scale with the +armour from Imp Dev Aura.
First of all it does not scale with the armor from imp dev aura from the testing I have done. You may be mistaking stacking with for scaling.

If it scaled it would work like this:

Basic: X armor
Imp Dev: 1.5X armor
Imp dev + AM use: 3X armor

In reality it works like this:
Basic: X armor
Imp Dev: 1.5X armor
Imp dev + AM use: 2.5X armor


Additionally AM is hardly needed for Ignis nor particularly useful. First of all your healers can still cast instant spells on flamejets, even a holy paladin has 2 of those they can use. Second he seems to cast it every 25 seconds requiring 3 paladins specced into AM to completely counter it. Third you loose the benefits of other auras to accomplish this. No fire resist aura, no devotion aura. And frankly if you're not doing the zerg method there is no danger of death from the boss that would require channeled casts every 25 seconds.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Worldie » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:25 pm

...and as added bonus, Flame Jets make the character fly in the air, so still interrupts the cast.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Inamoo » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:31 pm

I will not argue that Aura Mastery is shit if used on devotion aura.
It's not utter crap, basically like popping a not-so-good-trinket. However, where this talent shines is on bosses like Hodir.
Not wanting to sacrifice my normal stats with too many frost-resistance pieces I usually pop this during Frozen Blows.
Many bosses have specific magic school-based attacks that can be dampened quite a bit (at least in theory) by Aura Mastery.
I suck at math, so I haven't really done enough math to support this theory, but having had this in my spec for 3 weeks I do find it quite useful.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:36 pm

Inamoo wrote:I will not argue that Aura Mastery is shit if used on devotion aura.
It's not utter crap, basically like popping a not-so-good-trinket. However, where this talent shines is on bosses like Hodir.
Not wanting to sacrifice my normal stats with too many frost-resistance pieces I usually pop this during Frozen Blows.
Many bosses have specific magic school-based attacks that can be dampened quite a bit (at least in theory) by Aura Mastery.
I suck at math, so I haven't really done enough math to support this theory, but having had this in my spec for 3 weeks I do find it quite useful.

Well that's one fight frankly, and there is the opportunity cost to consider. Would you have fared better with one piece of FrR gear and a crusade in terms of survival and threat on that fight? On other fights? Did threat matter in the first place for your group? Did your group have a ret or holy paladin already that could have snagged AM for less opportunity cost? Would have PoJ's speed increase over the runspeed enchant or basic stam one have allowed your a threat gain from either a faster recovery after an accidental icicle hit, or more time in a light beam, or a faster reposition following a flash freeze? These are a lot of what ifs to answer, though there is a possibility that it was the right course of action for you. And finally there is the fact that most tanks preform the fight with no resistance other than an aura after their group has learned the fight.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Inamoo » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:47 pm

I usually raid 10-mans, and we rarely bring more than 2 paladins. The second paladin being a tank as well (crusade-specced), I kind of bring this to the table over improved buffs and such.
In the beginning I did miss PoJ very much, but to be honest, the threat-boost I had from retribution was far from needed.

Just make a list of every boss with some kind of resistable magic, within the schools of our auras and the spell is useful (Mimiron p2, Sapp/KT, Vezax, Yogg etc). The question is if it's a fair trade, as I did not need the threat provided I did find it better.
I just wanted to point out, that it's not a useless spell - given it's used on some kind of resistance aura.
Of course also dependant on whether you have a ret or holy specced for it, in that case I'd probably boost my tps/dps too.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Canedom » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:44 am

Taking Aura Mastery is often used for Yogg with 3 or less Keepers up because it removes the Silence from the ability he gains(something roar). Its often used in a rotation with the other paladins in your raid, all having Aura Mastery.

Other than this purpose, you would probably be better off sticking to the usual Crusade or other mitigation/threat specs.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby badgermonkey » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:24 pm

Perhaps you misunderstand. Allow me to provide an armory link (only ScottZirra in the game)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &gn=Exodus


You're gemmed for Parry and strength. You have an awful shield enchant. You have a subpar shoulder enchant. I'm inclined not to take your advice ;)
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Elsie » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:07 am

For what it's worth, I could survive two 27k hits >_>

Also, Majiben, you're right and wrong. You see, you're talking about BV not scaling within an an interval of 1 hit (i.e. 1 instance in time). They are talking about in an interval of time with a change in mob swing speed (i.e. swing speed is a variable not a constant). In this sense, BV does scale as more hits occur within a given interval. However, armor does not scale here. Armor scales according to total damage whether it occurs in 1 instance or 20. That is, BV will double in strength over two hits, but armor (and other straight %s) will remain constant.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby gokuson » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:37 pm

theckhd wrote:
Scottzirra wrote:Completely unbuffed I am combined 39% dodge/parry. My main point is that I think it is foolish to spend itemization points on these at this point given the DR. Not to mention that I am already over block cap, and adding more avoidance in place of BV would push that block rating off the table, and would therefore make it also wasted itemization. Given a 40% avoidance rate, the odds that I will actually take 2 back to back 30k's is essentially low enough to not worry about.

Wait, what? 40% avoidance rate means 60% chance to be hit, and thus a 0.6*0.6 = 0.36 = 36% chance that two successive attacks both hit you (and a 21% chance to take 3 in a row). With many of the bosses hitting for 20+k, that can easily be fatal, especially if environmental factors inhibit your healers (which is the most common way that I die - they have to move out of something and then can't get the heals off in time).

How exactly is 36% "not worth worrying about." Over the course of a 5-minute fight, a boss with a 2-second swing timer will attack you 150 times. You are virtually guaranteed to take at least 2 hits in a row at some point during this time. If you don't believe me, try calculating the probability:
P(taking 2 or more hits successively) = 1 - P(never taking more than 2 hits sequentially)
= 1 - sum_k [ (probability of taking k hits and N-k misses)*(# of strings with k non-adjacent hits)]
= 1 - sum_k [ p^k * q^(N-k) * (N-k+1 choose k) ], for N=150 and k=0..75 (k>75 guarantees that you take two hits in a row, obviously).

Let's be generous and assume you have 60% total avoidance, or p=0.4 and q=1-p=0.6. The result is 0.999999998 (the sum evaluates to 2 x 10^-9). In other words, the probability is effectively 1.0 out to 9 decimal places. You would need to drop your chance to be hit to less than 19% before the chance of never taking 2 or more hits in a row rises to 1%.

Scottzirra wrote:And I still operate under the assumption that my incoming heals are fairly constant, with the exception of timed boss specials, which means that dropping 10% off of EVERY attack (and lets be honest it is closer to 20% on a lot of fights) will allow my healers to go longer than if I were an avoidance tank.

This is generally not a good assumption, as I said earlier most tank deaths are due to damage spikes that temporarily exceed your incoming heal rate, or periods of lower-than-usual incoming heal rates. See below.

Scottzirra wrote:As an avoidance tank, you tend to require no heals for a period, then require massive heals, and then no heals again. The problem is that your healers cannot predict this incoming damage, and therefore must heal as if you were always in the period requiring more heals. By reducing all incoming melee attacks by 10-20%, and gearing in favor of this, I have allowed for my healers to have a predictable tank to heal, and therefore be more efficient.

Generally your healers are always proactively healing anyway. Most bosses that matter have fast enough swing timers that if they wait for you to take the first hit, their heal won't land by the second. 10-20% is not really enough to change this playstyle, since two hits plus any environmental damage will still kill you.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying block is terrible; it's solid damage mitigation against physical and blockable elemental attacks, and it does make us take more consistent damage, which is a good thing. But in terms of TTL and EH calculations, avoidance should be simply better, at least in the cases where block is only mitigating 10-20% of the attack.

Your point, as it were, is that taking predictable damage is somehow "better" than taking spike damage. The problem is that it's not true in all situations. If you're getting more Heals Per Second (HPS) than Damage Taken Per Second (DTPS), and your healers aren't in danger of running out of mana due to the length of the fight, then I, and most others here will agree with you.

Unfortunately, that just isn't the case in real encounters. Healers have to move out of fire, run out of mana, die, and so forth. These and other unplanned events lead to spikes in both DTPS (you stand in the fire) and HPS (healer has to move, and can't heal). It's those short periods of large (DTPS - HPS) differential that tend to kill tanks. In those cases, avoidance tends to win out because it reduces incoming DTPS by more than block does for large hits, since it scales with hit size and block doesn't. Statistically speaking, anyway. Obviously there's a crossover "hit size" where block becomes better than avoidance for this, but it will be for very low hit sizes, where block is considerable (40+% or 50+% mitigation).

I still have yet to see compelling evidence to support an avoidance vs BV arguement.

Hopefully this post has addressed that problem.


The odds of taking back to back damage with 40% avoidance is not 0.6*06=0.36. It is in fact 60%. The reason for this is that you don't care about when you take the first hit. You only care about the odds of taking a hit immediatley AFTER you have already been hit (and usually before a heal comes through because it may kill you).

This is why idealy you want to have enough hp/mitigation to surivive 2 or 3 damaging hits in a row and not ignoring expertise.

EDIT: so having 50% avoidance versus 40% reduces the odds of taking two hits in a row by 10%, and as theckhd implies, it reduces the number of situations you are set up to take a second hit (ie taking hit at full health) by another 10%. So in reality, what avoidance does is help reduce the number of spike damage situations.

A good check to use is if you get killed by a boss, look at the amount of damage that was overkill. see if the overkill damage over, say 3 hits adds up to the extra block value you would have had.
So if you are in avoidance gear with 2k block, and you die with 6.1k damage overkill, having 4k block value assuming the same HP and armor would not have saved you anyway since the overkill would have been 0.1k (over 3 hits). Now with the higher avoidance, this scenario of getting hit 3 times without a heal is reduced significantly.
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