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Dodge / Agility gems

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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Loras » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:31 am

fuzzygeek wrote:But yes, Agil/Dodge gems are a good way to go, especially once your dodge hits the high 20%s.

Just wondering, what exactly do people consider as the high 20%s? After what exact % (xx.xx%) are agility gems generally considered to be better? (unbuffed dodge, that is)
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:24 am

Loras wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:But yes, Agil/Dodge gems are a good way to go, especially once your dodge hits the high 20%s.

Just wondering, what exactly do people consider as the high 20%s? After what exact % (xx.xx%) are agility gems generally considered to be better? (unbuffed dodge, that is)

I believe it was around 700 rating. So about... erm... 28-29% dodge?
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby trellian » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:01 am

28% dodge is quite a lot unbuffed. I'd say more in the range of 26% for agi to become worthwhile.

I have nothing to support that thought though :)
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:05 am

trellian wrote:28% dodge is quite a lot unbuffed. I'd say more in the range of 26% for agi to become worthwhile.

I have nothing to support that thought though :)


I *wish* I had that much dodge. My warrior co-tank suddenly hit something like 28.04% dodge (unbuffed) and I believe he said it was 692 rating). He's started swapping out any extra dodge/stamina gems for expertise/stamina since he felt the DR on dodge was going to start making him suffer. And I believe he's right. Isn't 700 dodge rating where parry starts to be worthwhile for one more percentage point? Then it's back to dodge again.

All this being said, I'm hovering at 24% dodge, and while that seems low to me, I've swapped agility/stamina from my dodge/stamina because I like how it scales with buffs + lovely armor.
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Gamingdevil » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:38 am

Yes 700 rating is when parry becomes better...providing you have 0 parry rating and I doubt anyway has that few.
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:16 am

Gamingdevil wrote:How would it be extrordinarely weak? It would still offer 51 stamina over solid sky sapphires, all you lose is cheaping out on meta requirements and socket bonusses.


Certain gear configurations don't have 3 blue slots, so taking advantage of the JC gems would preclude set bonuses. It's a bit of an edge case and it affects other classes more than us (I know a few casters who are still hyperventilating over it), but it's still a concern to some. (Disclaimer: I'm a BS/JC)

As far as what % agil gems are better than dodge: this is a bit of a judgment call. I'm not certain the math can be worked out to pinpoint the exact moment the armor from agil gems is better than the decreasing returns on dodge gems, since "better" is subject to debate, and Armor is mitigation and EH whereas dodge is avoidance.

Given the difference in dodge before DR is on the order of 0.03%, I'm of the opinion the 18 armor and 0.15% crit is "better," but a lot of people argue more pure avoidance (even less than 0.03%) is always better from a min/max PoV.

(In my MT gear, if I put on dodge trinkets I'm at 30.31% dodge (696 rating) and 20.42% parry (348), and I gem for agility. With stam trinkets I'm at 27.19% dodge, but +3620 hp).
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Jasari » Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:30 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Gamingdevil wrote:How would it be extrordinarely weak? It would still offer 51 stamina over solid sky sapphires, all you lose is cheaping out on meta requirements and socket bonusses.


Certain gear configurations don't have 3 blue slots, so taking advantage of the JC gems would preclude set bonuses. It's a bit of an edge case and it affects other classes more than us (I know a few casters who are still hyperventilating over it), but it's still a concern to some. (Disclaimer: I'm a BS/JC)

As far as what % agil gems are better than dodge: this is a bit of a judgment call. I'm not certain the math can be worked out to pinpoint the exact moment the armor from agil gems is better than the decreasing returns on dodge gems, since "better" is subject to debate, and Armor is mitigation and EH whereas dodge is avoidance.

Given the difference in dodge before DR is on the order of 0.03%, I'm of the opinion the 18 armor and 0.15% crit is "better," but a lot of people argue more pure avoidance (even less than 0.03%) is always better from a min/max PoV.


While technically possible, it would be very hard to get a gear configuration without 3 blue sockets especially when you consider that if worst comes to worst you can always use a dragons eye in the belt buckle slot to take advantage of the extra stamina without having to sacrifice any socket bonus. So essentially you just need 2 blue sockets throughout the rest of your gear.
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Conaan! » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:51 pm

trellian wrote:28% dodge is quite a lot unbuffed. I'd say more in the range of 26% for agi to become worthwhile.

I have nothing to support that thought though :)



im sitting at about 26.2% in my raid gear, i can see getting to 28% with a few more upgrades
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Loras » Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:11 pm

I believe we derailed from the question :) Not when Parry becomes better than Dodge, but when Agility becomes better than Dodge. Asking this only because there are people who are way deeper into mathematical analyses, graphs, etc, and can possibly give a more appropriate and back-upped answer, than just us "assuming" when it's the right thing to do. I know that one gives more avoidance, the other gives more EH. Stamina =/= dodge, but I believe everyone would like 100 stamina instead of 12 dodge rating (exaggerating a bit, just so you can get what I mean exactly). So rather look at the question from this point of view.
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Worldie » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:15 pm

Agility and Dodge rating use the same Diminishing Return, so Agility will never become better than Dodge avoidance-wise, plain and simple.
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Levantine » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:44 pm

The reason agility is an acceptable replacement for dodge when gemming at high gear levels is because the absolute difference between the avoidance gained gets small enough that the armor provided by agility becomes much more attractive.

(Note that Dodge will always provide more avoidance)
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby Loras » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:31 am

Levantine wrote:The reason agility is an acceptable replacement for dodge when gemming at high gear levels is because the absolute difference between the avoidance gained gets small enough that the armor provided by agility becomes much more attractive.

(Note that Dodge will always provide more avoidance)


Ah! Here you are, almost reaching my point!

*sigh* Either I am not saying it clear enough (which I often happen to do, to be honest :) ), or...
I NEVER said that Agility will overcome Dodge for avoidance. I'm not that dumb lol :D

Check the First bolded part - that's it! WHEN do you consider being at higher gear level? At what % unbuffed dodge (because the gem swaps are not determined by gear item level, but solely by your dodge level).
And that question interacts with the Second bolded part, just switch "more attractive" with "somehow more effective". I know one gives more EH when giving less AV, which are different things. Check my example in my previous post - stamina is EH, avoidance is AV, but you'd prefer 120 stamina instead of 12 dodge even in an avoidance-heavy fight, simply because the trade-off is not worth it. So yeah, when doest the armor gain from the gem swaps start to... Ok, let's not say "become better", let's say "become at least equal" in terms of real gains (item budge might not be the right term to use, but refer to it if it's easier)?
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby MrDuck » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:08 am

Well i thied doing the maths in the other topic on this, yet I'm not quite sure if it's all correct:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23473&start=15#p448375
From my maths, assuming i'm correct, it would show that at some 25,5k unbuffed armor and about 29% unbuffed dodge, you sacrifice 0,058dodge for about 0,045 armor mitigation. when switching 3 hybrid gems over. There's still some flaws and missing calculations though, such as counting like 31% dodge (buffed value) and unbuffed armor, since I have no idea how my armor in combat with inspiration is, and i haven't even checked how's inspiration uptime to see if it shall be calculated in, so I just know I'm somewhere between 30 and 45k armor through the fight depending on buffs, trinkets, racial and stuff :/
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:34 pm

Loras wrote: Ok, let's not say "become better", let's say "become at least equal" in terms of real gains (item budge might not be the right term to use, but refer to it if it's easier)?


I honestly can not think of any way to reduce this into math.

Switching from dodge to agil gems will always be 17 armor, it will always be .15% crit. As your dodge gets higher, it will be less and less than 0.03% dodge.

Is there a mathematical formula for comparing dodge with armor and crit, completely disregarding DR? I don't think so; I don't think there's a Grand Unifying Theory of EH/Avoidance.
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Re: Dodge / Agility gems

Postby badgermonkey » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:47 pm

I'm currently at 23% unbuffed dodge rating. My 3 red gems are agi + Sta.

Now would I be better set with these as dodge rating gems since I'm not HUGELY into dodge DR? I'm leaning towards keeping the agi/sta gems. I like them, plus, they're cheaper ;)
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