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[Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Levantine » Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:45 am

Can someone explain why the continuously kick Ret PvP in the teeth like this when Disc Priest, Resto Druids, Rogues and DK's remain untouched? I'm honestly baffled as to why they keep doing it, was Ret actually overpowered and no one knew it?
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Joanadark » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:18 am

The thing that gets me, is that, by their own statement, they are balancing arena around "the lower brackets" where rets were apparently facerolling to victory.
Thats like balancing PvE around a bad 5-man PuG.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:30 am

Levantine wrote:Can someone explain why the continuously kick Ret PvP in the teeth like this when Disc Priest, Resto Druids, Rogues and DK's remain untouched? I'm honestly baffled as to why they keep doing it, was Ret actually overpowered and no one knew it?


They saw something they could fix that wouldn't have a knock-on PVE effect and nerfed it. I can understand their philosophy in that regard. I'm just hoping 3.2 brings some balances for the aforementioned classes.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:33 am

Levantine wrote:Can someone explain why the continuously kick Ret PvP in the teeth like this when Disc Priest, Resto Druids, Rogues and DK's remain untouched? I'm honestly baffled as to why they keep doing it, was Ret actually overpowered and no one knew it?


Who cares about how this hurts Ret.

Prot PvP is now essentially impossible from the looks of it. I do 10k damage and I'm out of moves to use, when the target still has 24k health there is NO chance for me to pressure them. I just lost to a bad disc/rogue TWICE because I couldn't pressure the priest via attacking them or attacking the rogue.

I cannot CC, HoJ still hits DR's if I use it right off cooldowns and I have now lost what allowed me to burst to begin with. I already needed a resto druid to fuck up to kill him, now it's going to be impossible. And disc will now be able to easily kite me because 20% int helps their mana regen a whole ton so I don't OOM them unless they're going crazy offensive, they can safely keep themself and their partner up while getting mana burns on my partner.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Baelor » Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:37 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Levantine wrote:Can someone explain why the continuously kick Ret PvP in the teeth like this when Disc Priest, Resto Druids, Rogues and DK's remain untouched? I'm honestly baffled as to why they keep doing it, was Ret actually overpowered and no one knew it?


They saw something they could fix that wouldn't have a knock-on PVE effect and nerfed it. I can understand their philosophy in that regard. I'm just hoping 3.2 brings some balances for the aforementioned classes.

Yes, the Vindication and HoJ changes have no effect on PvE - however, it is not a question of whether PvE is affected. The question is "does ret have an unfair advantage in PvP?" Or, rather, "is ret broken?" There is no need to monkey around with PvP mechanics if PvP isn't broken.

So, the question remains - was ret too powerful with Vindication removing stamina & intellect and Hammer of Justice interrupting player spells?
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:00 am

I certainly didn't feel overpowered. In my 2v2, it was my Mage friend pulling off the big crits. I just drew fire, scared the clothies stunned the occasional healer and threw some emergency heals/BoP. My DPS wasn't terrible, but I was definately more of a utility player. That said I was normally the first target, so possibly Retadins were percieved as more powerful than they were.

In BGs I felt like a tiny God once I got Ironsoul, but I attribute that more to the fact that half the BG crowd were running around in raid gear with no Resilience.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Baelor » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:08 am

I might just respec my 2 points in Toughness to Stoicism and arena/BG in my raid spec. What am I swapping specs for? Imp HoJ? Imp RF? I think I'm better off just replacing a glyph or two and throwing down with my resilience gear. It'll certainly save me some gold, and it'll be more damage (Righteous Vengeance, Swift Ret).
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:18 am

Baelor wrote:I might just respec my 2 points in Toughness to Stoicism and arena/BG in my raid spec. What am I swapping specs for? Imp HoJ? Imp RF? I think I'm better off just replacing a glyph or two and throwing down with my resilience gear. It'll certainly save me some gold, and it'll be more damage (Righteous Vengeance, Swift Ret).


At the moment I tuned my Ret spec towards PVP with some PVE damage things (I'm usually only Retting on one-tank fights, so I just need to do more damage than my Prot Spec). I'm planning on dropping Vindication and Eye For An Eye, at which point it will basically be the standard 0/17/54 Ret spec with the following changes:

5/5 Divinity to 2/2 Stoicism and 3/3 Guardian's Favor
4/5 Toughness to 1/5 Toughness and 3/3 Imp RF
2/2 Imp BoM to 2/2 Divine Purpose
3/3 Swift Retribution to 1/3 Swift Retri and 2/2 Imp HoJ.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby lochagos » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:22 am

Agree or not, I understand what they are trying to accomplish with the stamina side of this change. But why the int side?
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Splug » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:37 am

Comparing single-hit damage against a nuke-based caster class is never going to look good, by the way. I've started thinking of retribution paladins as a dual-wield class - the offhand is a holy strike. Where a mage is going to see a 10k damage spike in the form of a 6k frostbolt / 4k icelance, the ret paladin will see it as 3.5k crusader strike/2k SoB/2.5k autoattack/2k - the mage's numbers are higher, but with the seal "offhand" paladins are throwing significantly more attacks at a time. Was retribution out of control? Possibly. The portion of non-physical melee damage makes it extremely difficult to survive through a six second stun as any class who is reliant on armor to survive. Kiting-based classes such as mages, or classes with a stun-escape mechanic (again, mages), were already fairly well-off.

The mana change is less crippling, but mana war struck me as ret's "Plan B" for when their partner is bad at helping on CC - particularly ret/disc, where the healer is capable of supplying some quick burning. To keep someone's health high enough to be safe from dying during a CC chain, particularly against a player with high-burst surges and no target-change prep time, a healer does need to overheal a bit and keep HoT's rolling in advance (or in the case of holydins, switch divine shield frequently and early). I believe health/mana lost to reducing your maximum health/mana are not restored upon losing vindication; if so, the opening swing on a target was the equivalent of a ~1.5k manaburn. I don't think it was gamebreakingly 'overpowered' but it did kind of suck.

Overall, as a restoration shaman and holy paladin, I still feel rogues were the most threatening melee class due to frequency of stuns. Retribution was probably the second hardest class to heal through for me, just due to the potential CC chain and ease of target swapping. Warriors are a close third, but between ghostwolf kiting and joj kiting they're much more escapable (except in orgrimmar arena) and falling off target means MS drops, making full recovery simple. Death knights actually haven't been as big a problem for me to heal through - maybe it's because I was accustomed to dealing with the S5 shadowfrost mayhem, but the bigger problem has been chains of ice on my partner preventing a finishing move. Seeing a bunch of diseases start showing up may as well be a formal request to partake in fisticuffs - move the earth shield, throw a riptide, and go back to purging. EDIT: That said, the vengeful heart sigil needs to be reworked. Frost strike is too good with it and nearly hopeless without it.

That said, I still strongly recommend putting at least one point into vindication. A junk debuff that just sits on a target without requiring a global cooldown to apply is still going to eat cleanses that were meant for JoJ, HoJ, arcane torrent, or anything your partner might have as a magic debuff. Even if vindication is totally inert, a free cover debuff is worth one point.

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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:37 am

lochagos wrote:Agree or not, I understand what they are trying to accomplish with the stamina side of this change. But why the int side?


Limited healer mana too much I guess,
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Fedaykin98 » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:53 am

I sometimes feel OP in BGs; I have never felt OP in Arenas. Very sad about this nerf. Not sure how I will spec going forward.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Elsie » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:41 pm

That said, I still strongly recommend putting at least one point into vindication. A junk debuff that just sits on a target without requiring a global cooldown to apply is still going to eat cleanses that were meant for JoJ, HoJ, arcane torrent, or anything your partner might have as a magic debuff. Even if vindication is totally inert, a free cover debuff is worth one point.

I recommend not putting a point in vindication. A trash debuff means a trash talent point spent. Also, you could simply throw your CC at the enemy with a dispel instead of risking it being dispelled.

The concept of a trash debuff to "protect" the one you want is nice in principle but normally useless in practice.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 am

Ulushnar wrote:
lochagos wrote:Agree or not, I understand what they are trying to accomplish with the stamina side of this change. But why the int side?


Limited healer mana too much I guess,


So, the question remains - was ret too powerful with Vindication removing stamina & intellect and Hammer of Justice interrupting player spells?


Heres the thing, what was kind of unbalanced about Vindication WASNT that ret had it, it was that HOLY had it.

It was too easy for a Holy Paladin in arena to spec Vindication, and immediately start with a 20% lead in the mana war against the opposing healer simply by judging them once for 250 damage. Thats why they made the change to it reducing Intellect. Even if you dispelled Vindication off, you remained at that mana deficit, and wouldn't regain back up to your normal maximum mana.

Also, a team combining a Holy Paladin with, say, an MS warrior or a DK could simply put up Vindication on their partners target right as the partner is about to attempt a big burst. The burst potential of a warrior or DK isnt balanced around them having Vindication. Its balanced around them needing to do 20% more damage to kill something than they actually need to.
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Re: [Ret-PVP] Vindication Hotfix (nerf)

Postby Splug » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:16 pm

Elsie wrote:
That said, I still strongly recommend putting at least one point into vindication. A junk debuff that just sits on a target without requiring a global cooldown to apply is still going to eat cleanses that were meant for JoJ, HoJ, arcane torrent, or anything your partner might have as a magic debuff. Even if vindication is totally inert, a free cover debuff is worth one point.

I recommend not putting a point in vindication. A trash debuff means a trash talent point spent. Also, you could simply throw your CC at the enemy with a dispel instead of risking it being dispelled.

The concept of a trash debuff to "protect" the one you want is nice in principle but normally useless in practice.
I suppose it depends largely on what sort of group composition you're in as well. For example, I've seen a lot of 5v5's involving a retribution paladin and a deathknight - and any cover that can be provided for Chains of Ice is worth its weight in gold. Keeping a damage target in range of damage is going to do miles more than 1% haste. In a ret/disc setup, it also helps cover psychic scream, and the possible random SWP depending on how far ahead in the mana game your priest is. Ret/Rsham, it covers the flame shock (and it only needs to cover it through about 1 GCD before lava burst was prone to consume it anyway). Even for just the retribution paladin alone, assuming the CC lands dead on and nothing is done in the GCD between repentance and HoJ, it makes a trinket->cleanse maneuver less appealing. Shadow priests suffer hard because they don't have a means to apply garbage debuffs. It's less critical for the retribution paladin as they are not reliant on magic debuffs for directly adding damage, but a rogue or druid who is getting justice cleansed is still going to be problematic.

If anything, the fact that it's not a clear mandate or dismissal (and actually worth discussing) is an indication of Blizzard doing something right: making the tree balanced enough to be flexible, and have room for variance to the infamous cookie cutter mentality.

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