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Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby neokai » Sun May 17, 2009 10:36 pm

Because I like to test run 25man strats in 10 man ulduar.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Conaan! » Tue May 19, 2009 9:58 am

neokai wrote:Because I like to test run 25man strats in 10 man ulduar.


if thats directed at me, i stated 10 man, thats if you actually bothered to read it

still on 25, use it, bubble, if your tanking the boss, use the warrior/dk/druid on the adds and tell them its for the good of the raid
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Pracice » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:46 am

I applied to a guild the other day with the 53/18 spec, with points in crusade 3/3 and conviction 5/5 and no points in divinity. I was immediately shot down by all the paladins in that guild for not having any points in the talent. Naturally I didn't want to tell the officer that the talent is not entirely necessary and that he and the rest were overreacting. He later revealed that in this tank spec he has even taken 5/5 divinity instead of 5/5 in Divine Strength and suggested that Divine Strength was a less useful talent. In reply to this I even posted the links to a post with a debate going on about Divinity and they still choose to ignore it and tell me off for not having the talent.

Why don't they understand that the points in Divinity are more useful in other places and the extra healing is minimal in most boss fights with competent healers?
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Solare » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:02 am

Pracice wrote:I applied to a guild the other day with the 53/18 spec, with points in crusade 3/3 and conviction 5/5 and no points in divinity. I was immediately shot down by all the paladins in that guild for not having any points in the talent. Naturally I didn't want to tell the officer that the talent is not entirely necessary and that he and the rest were overreacting. He later revealed that in this tank spec he has even taken 5/5 divinity instead of 5/5 in Divine Strength and suggested that Divine Strength was a less useful talent. In reply to this I even posted the links to a post with a debate going on about Divinity and they still choose to ignore it and tell me off for not having the talent.

Why don't they understand that the points in Divinity are more useful in other places and the extra healing is minimal in most boss fights with competent healers?


Because there is a striking difference between opinion and proven theory-craft, unfortunately. Unfortunate that there is often a better way to do things despite options presented to you. And sometimes this lack of options can feel like bullying, and people might resent this and go forth to 'prove' it wrong. And when these people get into groups, ignorance spreads. >_<

That being said... it is near to impossible to know absolutely everything, especially in a scene as ever changing as WoW has become lately. Who knows what changes tomorrow might bring. Defend yourself against seeming arrogant or cocky by using phrases such as "To my knowledge, there is little evidence..." or "To my knowledge, the consensus is that..."

Very little exists in absolutes. Who knows. Maybe tomorrow prot paladins will care about armor penetration, or find that Divinity is more useful than Divine Strength. But that day is not today. xD
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Pracice » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:20 am

So annoying because if I argue the toss about the talents it will only result in me being declined by the guild or joining with one of the officers not liking me very much!

Sorry, back to the topic now.

I think Divine Strength > Divinity personally
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Panzerdin » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:14 am

It's very simple. Take whatever screwed-up spec makes them happy, and it's their own damned problem. Or link them to this website and ask them to read it.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Pracice » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:36 am

Panzerdin wrote:link them to this website and ask them to read it.


Exactly what I did, but of course they obviously haven't bothered reading it....
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby badgermonkey » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:14 am

I wouldn't WANT to join them then to be honest. You know from the theorycrafting herewhat is good, and what is bad. If they all insist you're wrong, and tell you that they're the be all and end all, find a better guild.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby trellian » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:12 am

My classleader is also still a firm believer that Divinity is worthwile. He however leaves me to spec how I want, since I'm the tank and he isn't.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby badgermonkey » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:51 pm

I gave one of our established tanks some "advice" about how goddam awful his spec was. He quit right in the middle of the next boss fight as we were still discussing it ver vent. God knows how I took Razorscale with no tankswaps.

At the end of the day, nobody is going to like being told their spec is wrong. Except people willing to learn of course, but other than them, everyone has a hissy fit. I went ballistic at a hunter the other day for telling me 1 point in Improved Judgement is a total waste, and I should go learn about my class. (I was a bit harsh cos of RL problems affecting my mood recently).

So if they think they're just as right as you, they won't be happy ;)

Stick to somewhere that allows you to do whatever you want. Some peoples' specs may suck, if you're progressing, it's not an issue. If you start hitting major issues, then it's worth telling people off, making suggestions etc.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Dantriges » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:22 pm

Telling other people their spec sucks works only if you have the reputation and well be more subtle.

Got a pretty good reputation from my BC days. Ran a lot of Kara randoms and PUG heroes. I was a tankadin when tankadin wasn´t the FotM in BC after people realized that a tankadin was the best tank for a hero to farm badges for welfare epics.

Some time ago I was astonished what people spec in their tanking tree and I tallked to people about their spec .

I think everyone listened and nearly everyone changed spec. Guys who didn´t had another reason to keep their spec.

So it´s quite a lot easier to talk about specs, when many of the more established tankadins from the server got their first bit of advice from you and most of the others know what that you are a person who knows what he is talking about.

Still being very polite debating this topic is essential. Nobody likes being called a noob in harsh language.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Rickter » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:46 am

I've had alot of the same experiences with advising people on spec and gearing related questions. But as mentioned above, i was a horde tankadin when no one wanted us, so sticking with it has gained me tremendous respect from guildies and ex-guildies alike, as well as a decent rep among raiders throughout the server that i've got a good idea what's going on.

Personally, i haven't been sold on Divinity and for now will continue to skip it. Some folks that i've tanked with along the way and even advised are still not so sure and are taking it in lieu of crusade. But seeing the amount of overhealing i recieve and how infrequently my deaths are by anything less than like 8k+ overkill, i can't imagine it being a useful talent....but i would love to be proven wrong. My idea has always been to guide people in the right direction, but if people are getting the job done as good as the next guy and don't want to change. It's their toon not mine.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby PapaNasty » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:26 am

I really don't see how you guys can not give Divinity some <3 ay


5% more healing recieved, not to mention 5% more healing done (Judgement of Light kgo!) is pretty wicked.


Particularly when all that you're losing, is 5% crit. Like I just don't see how more threat, when we already have the highest single target threat, is more important than surviveability.



You might not die from a 1k or even 2k hit every time, but sometimes when you die you've been low for a while, maybe you only had 1 healer up and were taking alot of dmg, but if you're thinking about assessing the viability of this talent, then when you die scroll up until the last time you were topped up to 100% life.

Then add in 5% of every heal which you took between that 100% life and 0%, a lot of the time you're going to die to sudden spike damage and so divinity wouldn't have saved you, but all you need is for it to prevent 1 death a month and it's done a heck of a lot more than crusade (Although I would like to try a dps tanking spec one day for patchwerk, highest dps on a 3min kill I've been able to get is around 3.6k while tanking, would be nice to break 4k for lolz)


Edit: Also in reply to one of the other above posters, yes I would agree with you, Divine Str is much much much better than Divinity
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby majiben » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:38 am

JoL will be judged by ret.

You're giving up 3-6% more damage done and 2% crit not 5% crit.

You must produce evidence of when divinity has/would have saved you to show it's worth to you.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Hurlrage » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:35 am

PapaNasty wrote:I really don't see how you guys can not give Divinity some <3 ay
.
.


This is belief, not sound theorycrafting. If I want belief I'll just ask advices about divinity on /2, I'll get plenty of it. You'll excuse me if I skip your advice until you present some sound maths to support it.

But prove you're right and even a lurker such as me will apologize to you.
Still waiting for some good maths in support of Divinity.
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