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Paladins geared to be bears

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Re: Paladins geared to be bears

Postby Rudegirl » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:55 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Rudegirl wrote:Are there any out there?

When i healed, what i loved about druids was the consistent and slightly lower damage they took - even without being uncrushable. And also the high threat.


BTW, against bosses this is a common misconception about druids. They actually take the most burst damage over a given time frame because of crushing blows, and by far have the most inconsistent damage. Druids, can take less damage overall, while still taking the biggest single hit, so their damage taken varies quite a bit. Their high health can often give an appearance of that not being case and does generally give the healers the feeling of fairly consistent damage, simply because it all tends to be a smaller percentage of their total health.


Yep, but difference is that a paladin woudlnt be crushable - so that elminates the possibility for spikes from crushing.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that saying you're gearing like a bear is a bit off; instead, I'd say you were a firm believer of the effective health theory, which means stacking mitigation (armor and blockvalue) and health above avoidance.


That's exactly what i'm thinking:)

And to all, thx for the feedback here - learnt alot. I thought armor was on dimishing returns, and forgot about the part where the char screen % reduction is against equal lvl targets. We still have the extra 6% from righteous fury, but getting the same _flat_ damagereduction as druids will be alot harder then i had hoped.
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Postby Lieris » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:55 am

SmurfZG wrote:Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that saying you're gearing like a bear is a bit off; instead, I'd say you were a firm believer of the effective health theory, which means stacking mitigation (armor and blockvalue) and health above avoidance.


You stole my post!

Rudegirl wrote:Btw, how come everyone says T5 is useless? isn't blockvalue abit underrated?


It's not useless, it's just has lots of pointless intellect wasted which could have been spent on more stamina and block value :( The 4 piece set bonus is only half as good as the warrior 2 piece set bonus too.

I like the stamina and block value approach a lot. I am at around 490 currently but I think I will stop hoarding my DKP and buy the Red Havoc Boots pattern off our guild bank this week. The TK trash ring would be nice too but I've never seen it drop :/
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Postby Zhalseran » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:10 am

Zhalseran wrote:If you want to be a bear, go roll a bear imo. The tank mechanics are totally different, and a Paladin needs a different balance of stats in order to be successful.


From lack of better arguments?
I think you better elaborate, cuz as far as i can see - my thought is just a preference of taste that achieves the same thing in the long run.[/quote]

I dont mean to be a party pooper, but thats not the case. Bear tanks and Paladin tanks work on different principals because of their class and talent makeup. Sure you can play a paladin and stack tons of bear stats, but that won't give us their talents, their health/armor modifiers, their fixed aggro abilities, etc.
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Postby Jarkeld » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:11 am

Your math is off.
65% damage reduction from armour + 10% damage reduction from a shield block is the same as 69.5% damage reduction from armour. If you had 65% damage reduction from armour and wanted to reach the equivalent of 75% armour reduction through blocking against 6k hits, you need ~1700 block value.
17100 unmitigated hit
after 65% armour reduction-5985 damage
after 600 block -5385 damage
after 1700 block-4285 damage

17100 unmitigated hit
after 75% armour reduction-4275 damage

the morale of the story? You have to know how game mechanics work if you're going to try to stack gear in a specific way to attempt to reach a specific result. Otherwise, just gear yourself with whatever is the highest ilvl, 8/10 times, the highest ilvl item is the best for the job anyways.
In the beginning the universe was created. This has made many people upset and generally been decided as a bad idea.
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Postby Kitria » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:15 pm

SmurfZG wrote:
Rudegirl wrote:Armor has diminishing returns, the armor cap is at 35k with 75% damage reduction - which bears in decent gear hit fairly easily. With 20k armor however, you would have aprox: ~65% dmg reduction.

(If you look at lore, 64% dmg reduction with 18,7k armor)


Armor does not have diminishing returns. 35k armor is exactly twice as good as 17.5k armor, because for any given hit the piece of meat with 35k armor will take half as much damage as the piece of meat with 17.5k armor.

Armor has flat returns, avoidance has increasing returns. Blockvalue has increasing returns if you compare against an equal hit.

On the subject of "gearing like a bear". Bears stack their armor to cap at 35k, get a good chunk of stam, and then they start stacking agility for avoidance, and strength for threat. A bears avoidance can easily get past 50% raidbuffed while maintaining the armor and stam. (disclaimer: i don't actually have a bear, but I'm fairly certain that this is what they do)

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that saying you're gearing like a bear is a bit off; instead, I'd say you were a firm believer of the effective health theory, which means stacking mitigation (armor and blockvalue) and health above avoidance.


Armor has diminishing returns. 17.5k armor is 60% damage reduction, 35k armor is 75% damage reduction. Bears with good gear and lots of agility can get over 50% avoidance, but they only have dodge and base miss chance to work with there.
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Postby Arcand » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:18 pm

Kitria wrote:Armor has diminishing returns. 17.5k armor is 60% damage reduction, 35k armor is 75% damage reduction.


Armor has diminishing returns if you look at damage reduction, but if you look at the effective health/armor or time-to-death/armor relationships, they're linear. Increasing armor by a% increases the melee damage required to kill you by a%.

(Also, I don't think the 17.5k is exactly right. I have 16016 armor and IIRC my reduction is a whisker over 60%.)

Note: For anyone who wants to play around with it, WoWwiki offers the following formula for armor effect at level 60 and above, which they claim was extracted from "Blizzard UI elements":

Reduction = A / {A+400+85[L+4.5(L-59)]}

At level 70, that would become

Reduction = A / {A+400+85[70+49.5]}

Reduction = A / (A + 10557.5)

(Testing with my 16016 armor I get 60.27% reduction, which is exactly? what my character sheet says.)

So 10558 armor would get you to 50% reduction, and you'll hit the cap when

0.75 = A / (A+10557.5)

(algebra)

I find that you hit 75% reduction at 31673 armor, so that would be The Cap.
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Postby SmurfZG » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:14 pm

Kitria wrote:
*snip*

Armor has diminishing returns. 17.5k armor is 60% damage reduction, 35k armor is 75% damage reduction. Bears with good gear and lots of agility can get over 50% avoidance, but they only have dodge and base miss chance to work with there.


Ok, I was a bit off there, you won't take a hit half as big by doubling your armor.

However, armor still doesn't have diminishing returns when you calculate what matters; how much time you can survive without healing.

To be precise, 35880 armor is 75% damage reduction versus level 73 mobs (mitigation=armor/(armor+11960)), and 17940 armor is 60%. Versus a level 70 mob you cap at 75% mitigation with 31672 armor, but let's work with the boss level of 73.

Calculating your time to live, with only hp, incoming dps and armor mitigation as your input.
Code: Select all
HP/((1-Mitigation)*DPS)=time to live in seconds


Let's say you have 10000 hp and the boss puts out 1000 raw physical dps.

If you have 0 armor, it takes him 10 seconds to kill you.
Code: Select all
10000/((1-0)*1000)=10


If you have 17940 armor, i.e. 60% mitigation, it takes him 25 seconds to kill you. A 15 seconds increase in time to live.
Code: Select all
10000/((1-0.60)*1000)=25


If you have 35880 armor, i.e. 75% mitigation, it takes him 40 seconds to kill you. Again, a 15 seconds increase in time to live.
Code: Select all
10000/((1-0.75)*1000)=40


What this proves is that the first 17940 armor is just as good as the next 17940 for the purpose of giving healers time to land a heal before you're dead.

Thanks for forcing me to think about this properly :)
I smurfed around and found this thread particularily useful, as it explains the exact same thing http://www.tankspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/33102-diminishing-returns.html.
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Postby Rudegirl » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:04 pm

Your not considering what the increase in armor is relative to here smurfZG.

0%= 10 seconds till death
60% = 25 seconds till death
75% = 40 seconds till death

25/10seconds = 250% increase
40/25seconds = 160% increase

Isn't that the more correct comparison for the scenario?
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Postby SmurfZG » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:13 pm

Rudegirl wrote:Your not considering what the increase in armor is relative to here smurfZG.

0%= 10 seconds till death
60% = 25 seconds till death
75% = 40 seconds till death

25/10seconds = 250% increase
40/25seconds = 160% increase

Isn't that the more correct comparison for the scenario?


Well, say the increases would be equal, 250% for every 17940 armor.

60%=25 seconds, 250% increase
75%=62.5 seconds, a 250% increase relative to 60% mit, but a whooping 625% increase relative to 0% mit. Obvious increasing returns.

As it is now, every point of armor increases your chance to live by a certain amount of seconds.
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