Remove Advertisements

Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun May 24, 2009 12:57 pm

It was about blood draining...
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
Image
User avatar
Gamingdevil
 
Posts: 1738
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby praetorae » Mon May 25, 2009 6:20 am

Just some anecdotal evidence to quickly add here (unfortunately no WWS or anything neat like that).

Anyway, ran with Blood draining last night for our General-25 kill. Pretty hard hitting boss and I was defiantly under 35% health quite a few times. Looking at the healing done to me, blood draining clocked up an...underwhelming 9.5k healing done.

Obviously, this is healing done 'when you need it most'. But still, was sorta disappointed with this, might get my act together and get some WWS reports next week but atm it looks like I'll be switching back to good old +agi.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
User avatar
praetorae
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:17 am

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Zothor » Tue May 26, 2009 6:54 am

So I switched back to goose after the simulation showed that there's definitely a range where blood draining can cause you to get killed, something I just wasn't comfortable with even with improved average TTL.

Now apparantly blood draining was hotfixed over the weekend, causing it to restore the appropriate amount of health. No indication as to whether it was restoring too much or too little before, or what the tweak was.

Any chance of re-running these numbers?
Zothor
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:39 pm

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby theckhd » Tue May 26, 2009 8:50 am

I've been getting a lot of questions similar to the two below in the past week or so, especially since the blue post about the hotfix. I'd like to address this matter quickly, because it seems that people have been drawing conclusions without actually reading the content of the post.

Kaienn wrote:One would assume that it is possible it was restoring to much health, maybe altering the data you gained for this enchant. Even if it was too little, I think another round of testing for this enchant is due.

Zothor wrote:Now apparantly blood draining was hotfixed over the weekend, causing it to restore the appropriate amount of health. No indication as to whether it was restoring too much or too little before, or what the tweak was.

Any chance of re-running these numbers?


This was a numerical simulation. It's a model that reflects the way the system works, but it is not drawn directly from data gathered in-game. Furthermore, it was a proof-of-principle simulation to demonstrate that the intuition that Blood Draining + Ardent Defender = Bad was wrong. There are far too many approximations in here for it to be a comprehensive analysis of the enchant.

Since I didn't gather any data in-game for this, it doesn't matter what sort of hotfix they did or did not apply, because it won't change the simulation any. In addition, without knowing what sort of change the hotfix made, it would be impossible to change the model. So until we have any idea what they did, there's no way to update this analysis.

Zothor wrote:So I switched back to goose after the simulation showed that there's definitely a range where blood draining can cause you to get killed, something I just wasn't comfortable with even with improved average TTL.

This is, to be frank, a complete misinterpretation of the results of this calculation. By the logic you suggested, you never want a Druid or Priest HoT on you either, because they can cause exactly the same problem. Worse yet, since they are ticking constantly, they are far more likely to cause an AD-leapfrog death than this enchant on any boss that drops you into AD range more than once every ~30 seconds, because the enchant needs to recharge.

Maybe you're one of those tanks that only ever has a Paladin healing him, and makes sure he never has a HoT on him at any point during the encounter, because he's terrified of AD leapfrogs. If so, uh, well... good luck with that, I guess?

Wearing avoidance gear instead of stacking Block value also creates a "range" where you would get killed, but you don't see too many tanks wearing full BV gear to boss-tank in Ulduar. In fact, every gearing decision you make as a tank creates situations where you'll die that you would have lived otherwise. The reason we choose one piece of gear over another is always based on averages, because that's what matters when you ask "What choice do I make that will prevent the most number of wipes or save me the most number of times."
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7756
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Awyndel » Thu May 28, 2009 8:38 am

Well, that is of course, entirely correct thinking. I however wonder, if you substract the bad from the good, if whats left over, is gonna beat 26 agility for chances of survival while fighting a hard hitting boss. And like you said, without any real numbers there isn't really a sensible answer.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby theckhd » Thu May 28, 2009 8:53 am

Awyndel wrote:Well, that is of course, entirely correct thinking. I however wonder, if you substract the bad from the good, if whats left over, is gonna beat 26 agility for chances of survival while fighting a hard hitting boss. And like you said, without any real numbers there isn't really a sensible answer.

Well, for TTL blood draining is going to be better. Why?

Agility gives you Dodge and Armor (and some crit, which we can ignore). Dodge does absolutely nothing for TTL, because when you calculate TTL or EH, you completely ignore avoidance. So the only benefit that you get from 26 Agility towards TTL calculations is 52 Armor, which is equivalent to something like 5 Stamina. Blood draining, on the other hand, gives you the equivalent of 200 stamina (after kings, 180ish before) if you get a full 2k heal.

However, EH and TTL aren't everything - obviously avoidance has value or we wouldn't stack it. For that comparison, you'd want to look at something like average damage taken, or average damage taken per second, and see how each enchant reduces that value. I wouldn't be surprised if Blood Draining still wins, but it'd be a much closer comparison then.

I can tell you for a fact though that the next tanking weapon I get is getting a Blood Draining enchant though, at least to test it out for a while.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7756
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Nadir » Thu May 28, 2009 2:07 pm

Here's the one death on our successful Thorim hard mode kill. The log begins immediately following an Unbalancing Strike around ~11 charges.


Time | Health | Event
04:57.139 -34837 [Extension] Judgement of Light hot [Nadir] 1226
04:57.156 -32717 [Nadir] Blood Reserve heal [Nadir] 2120
04:57.156 -32717 [Nadir] fade [Environment] Blood Reserve
04:57.218 -28119 [Opz] Flash of Light (r9) heal [Nadir] 4598
04:57.218 -28119 [Nadir] gained [Prales] Lifebloom (r3) (2)
04:57.218 -27394 [Brolphe] Wild Growth (r4) hot [Nadir] 725
04:57.327 -47637 [Thorim] crit [Nadir] 20243 {840 overkill}

841 HP more and Blood Reserve would have saved me! I'm sticking with this enchant for now.
Image
Nadir
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 8:37 am

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby majiben » Thu May 28, 2009 3:13 pm

Theck I could have swore TTL was the expected time to live taking simulated damage and avoidance then looking at the average/median time to live.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Awyndel » Thu May 28, 2009 3:17 pm

Semantics aside, both EH/"TTL" and avoidance count towards chances of survival. And those chances is what I am interested in, when it comes down to this enchant vs other enchants. And I don't mean less damage taken, I mean deaths prevented.

But let's wait with the asumptions untill we get some actual numbers. If somebody would be so nice to get us some ;)
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby theckhd » Thu May 28, 2009 11:19 pm

Majiben wrote:Theck I could have swore TTL was the expected time to live taking simulated damage and avoidance then looking at the average/median time to live.


From tankspot
Ciderhelm wrote:Effective Health is the measurement of how much breathing room your healers have to keep you alive assuming all other factors fail -- assuming you do not avoid or block attacks or have a mana shield active. Effective Health is important for tanking heavy hitting creatures because of Murphy's Law -- if you can have long strings of not Dodging an attack, it will definitely happen. Raid tanking, ultimately, is about stability.


Also from tankspot
Satrina wrote:Time to Live - Also called survivability. Your hitpoints and mitigation from armour combined will allow you to stay alive for a certain length of time under a given rate of damage incoming. If I have 10000 armour and 10000 hitpoints, and my opponent is level 70 and deals 200 damage per second (DPS) then:


- I have 48.6% mitigation, as above
- My mitigation means that my opponent actually is doing 102.7 damage per second to me
- My 10000 hitpoints will last for 97.4 seconds at that rate. This is my time to live

As we see, my armour and hitpoints combine together to determine how much damage I am taking, and how long I will live. We note that armour matters only for physical damage. Armour does not do anything against a fireball - that's why we have resist gear.


I've seen people use EH and TTL interchangeably in other threads on tankspot as well. I assumed this was the standard usage, in which case both terms ignore healing and avoidance.

I think there's a term for what you're describing, but I don't remember what it is at this point.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7756
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Rasmfrackn » Fri May 29, 2009 1:06 pm

theckhd wrote:I think there's a term for what you're describing, but I don't remember what it is at this point.


According to the tankspot calculator, they call it "Total Damage Reduction" there:
http://www.tankspot.com/index.php?pageid=Calculator
tankspot calc wrote:Total Damage Reduction (TDR) is a function of Avoidance and Armor. Total Damage Reduction does not account for Shield Block Value, Shield Block Rating, Crushing Blows, debuffs (Thunderclap, Demoralizing Shout). Avoidance is not adjusted for level difference.


Hrm, I guess that'd then scale your stamina up. That stamina-scaled-by-TDR number is the metric I generally use for my tanking weights, but I'm not sure what I'd call it.

I guess I haven't seen a widespread term for the total, all-inclusive value of all your defenses combined into one number.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Amaranthea » Fri May 29, 2009 9:10 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:I guess I haven't seen a widespread term for the total, all-inclusive value of all your defenses combined into one number.


Tankpoints?

Although "average TTL" also makes sense.
Amaranthea
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:10 pm

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:53 pm

Amaranthea wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:I guess I haven't seen a widespread term for the total, all-inclusive value of all your defenses combined into one number.


Tankpoints?

Although "average TTL" also makes sense.

Tankpoints is probably the best one... it doesn't really mean anything, but people already have a sense of what it is due to the mod. It's also catchy.

Or how about Total TTL, i.e. TTTL? :)
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby majiben » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:43 pm

How about ST - Solo time (to live of a boss)
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Re: Blood Draining Enchant - TTL Simulation

Postby Ezikiel » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:20 am

if we have divine plea up and blood draining proccs, will it get the divine plea healing penalty?
Image

Ezikiel retierd pre 2.3
Ezikiel
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:28 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?