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Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

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Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Kalakaua » Mon May 25, 2009 6:46 am

There are a lot of posts saying how some hard mode was beaten with x number of dps, y number of healers, and z number of tanks, but they don't really say how much dps their dps was doing. I want to encourage my 10 man group to start attempting some hard modes, but I want to make sure my group is capable of doing it. Saying t7.5 gear is enough doesn't help me since we have some t7.5 geared people doing 6k dps, and others doing less than 4k, which obviously makes a big difference.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Invisusira » Mon May 25, 2009 6:48 am

Best way to know if you're ready? Try it.

Remember, the 10 man hard modes are tuned for people in full Ulduar-10 gear - which is pretty much the same as people in full Nax-25 gear.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby guillex » Mon May 25, 2009 8:17 am

Invisusira wrote:Best way to know if you're ready? Try it.

Remember, the 10 man hard modes are tuned for people in full Ulduar-10 gear - which is pretty much the same as people in full Nax-25 gear.


This. There's nothing better than doing your own benchmarks.

Check out this thread for some discussion on the various hard modes.

Just remember that two equally geared 10 man guilds can do very differently on hard modes ... Bring the player, not the class, or so it's said. Get in there and give it a shot. :)
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Panzerdin » Mon May 25, 2009 1:22 pm

And tell the people doing 4k to sort their acts out.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Kishandra » Tue May 26, 2009 3:59 am

I've done a fair bit of hard modes on my hunter (XT, Iron Council, Hodir, Thorim, Freya, Vezax) and my dps is all over the place, from 3k on 2 keeper yogg to 9k on hodir. A decent point of reference could be Ignis, I guess. Just a hair off of 6k on our last kill. If the raid averages around 5k apiece though I'm sure you'll be fine on quite a few of them.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby amh » Tue May 26, 2009 4:27 am

Panzerdin wrote:And tell the people doing 4k to sort their acts out.


4k dps isn´t really unreasonable on a 10man, especially since a lot of these fights have various odd elements to them, and a lot of movement. Hard to stack buffs for everyone. The ones we´ve done so far rely more on execution than raw dps. I like it!
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Seloei » Tue May 26, 2009 4:37 am

DPS meters aren't that useful in ulduar, because most fights dont just consist of standing still and nuking your arse off all fight long wihtout doing anything else.
The only one which is like that is ignis, you can get a general idea who is slacking and who is not.

The only way to see if you are ready for the hardmodes is to try them, don't know of any way to check how fast the dps is reacting to the new target that has to be burned asap or how long are they moving etc.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Passionario » Tue May 26, 2009 9:23 am

Panzerdin wrote:And tell the people doing 4k to sort their acts out.

*looks at his guild's 10-man Ulduar logs*
*sees numbers that range from 2.5K to 3.8K*
*weeps in despair*
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Fedaykin98 » Tue May 26, 2009 10:56 am

amh wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:And tell the people doing 4k to sort their acts out.


4k dps isn´t really unreasonable on a 10man, especially since a lot of these fights have various odd elements to them, and a lot of movement. Hard to stack buffs for everyone. The ones we´ve done so far rely more on execution than raw dps. I like it!


I do in the 4s (mid-high 4s). I'm often the top DPS on a particular fight for my guild. Last week, we almost got a couple different hard modes down, and likely would have if we'd had a more stacked DPS crew.

We don't have anyone doing nearly 6k, on 10 or 25. Possibly this is due to lack of perfect buff stacking. Possibly this is also due to longer kill times because we have a wide distribution, ala me in the 4s and our lowest people near 2k, so longer kill = less % time under Heroism = lower DPS figures.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Panzerdin » Tue May 26, 2009 4:20 pm

If the conditions exist for some players to be breaking 6k, then anyone doing 66% of that is just sucking. The discrepancies within current content simply aren't that large.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby PsiVen » Tue May 26, 2009 5:14 pm

That's not true at all. Even if they have the exact same job, gear and class differences (not to mention raid debuffs in a 10man) can easily put say for XT hardmode a ret paladin doing 4600 while a combat rogue hits 7k. Look at any WWS, the spread is significant. Anyone who can reliably put out 4k DPS is pulling their weight at least.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Conaan! » Thu May 28, 2009 12:51 pm

Panzerdin wrote:If the conditions exist for some players to be breaking 6k, then anyone doing 66% of that is just sucking. The discrepancies within current content simply aren't that large.


completely untrue, dps varies from class, gear, skill, lag, RNG and everything else, the whole raid can not reliably do top DPS as calculated by spreadsheets

if you expect that number for every fight in ulduar, then you should not be close to a leading position in a raid, as you do not know how much the variables come into play for DPS
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Kishandra » Thu May 28, 2009 1:52 pm

On one hand, what the previous two have said are true ... there is an element of randomness and dps assignments that causes damage difference, Yogg-Saron being the most notable one that includes both.

On the other, no one is performing at maximum spreadsheet efficiency. My spreadsheet says I should be doing 7200, when I barely break 6k on Ignis. If any dps in the same group is doing 66% of my damage on Ignis, then yes, they really are sucking it up because hunters are on the lower end of single target dps (see general trend in http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/classrank/7 ).

It's all about considering the situation rather than blanket statements of whether a dps differential is cause for concern. Honestly though, the amount of fights that are too random or have too many assignments are in the minority.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Fedaykin98 » Thu May 28, 2009 3:02 pm

If I may add more data to the randomness discussion: Two weeks ago, I did 4800 on XT (10 man). This week, I did just under 4k. No gear changes, no consumable changes, no rotation changes, very little inebriation change. What changed dramatically was the players around me, including no shaman this week.

The point is, there are a lot of factors that affect DPS that are outside of the player's control, including what other classes come. Some classes buff physical DPS more than melee, and vice versa. I wouldn't blame our mage that he was the sole non-physical damage dealer we had this week.
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Re: Hard Mode DPS requirements [10]

Postby Panzerdin » Thu May 28, 2009 3:13 pm

RNG may make a difference of 1k to your DPS in an extreme situation. Class difference may even make up the other thousand. RNG and class bias is different on every fight, however. If it's the same people pulling 6k and 4k, then it sure as hell isn't class or RNG differences.
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