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When to aim for hard modes?

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When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Big Mushy » Mon May 04, 2009 7:38 am

Heya all, just been wondering a little with all these options of hard modes that are out now, and just wondering when it is time to encourage a hard mode fight, I'm currently the MT/Raid Leader so people have been asking me if we are up to hard mode yet, normally I laugh and say "hell no" but its left me wondering, some encounters seem far more intense with a hard mode setting but some seem doable unless there's something hidden I haven't read yet, so my question is, how does one know when its time for hard mode? we missed our chance at OS3D, well we attempted countless nights but we never had our core groups as people got burned out and I don't want to let that happen again.


Cheers for the help and advice ;)
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Jasari » Mon May 04, 2009 7:40 am

If you've cleared Ulduar on easy mode, you should be starting hard modes... that's progression.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby aleyona » Mon May 04, 2009 7:46 am

Jasari wrote:If you've cleared Ulduar on easy mode, you should be starting hard modes... that's progression.


There's a lot of 'hard modes' that really aren't that hard. I would say when you've one-shot a boss two weeks in a row it's time to start hard modes. If you're still working on progressing through the remainder however, you probably want to save the wipes for new content rather than trying for hard modes.

A lot of it is based on when the guild is ready for it - If you're not the guild master / officers it's not something you should be worrying about. If you are, then the above is a good guideline.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Big Mushy » Mon May 04, 2009 7:48 am

Awsome thanks, thats pretty much what I was thinking, also for the fact that the gear upgrade in ulduar wil help for hard modes lol... if the pally token ever drops ><
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby inthedrops » Mon May 04, 2009 8:28 am

aleyona wrote:There's a lot of 'hard modes' that really aren't that hard. I would say when you've one-shot a boss two weeks in a row it's time to start hard modes. If you're still working on progressing through the remainder however, you probably want to save the wipes for new content rather than trying for hard modes.


I think this is very sensible. If you're going to try hard modes before you've killed everything once I wouldn't spend an entire night learning a hard mode. I'd probably stop after about two failed attempts unless it looked like success was coming.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Senador » Mon May 04, 2009 8:41 am

An exception though, should be FL with 1 Tower, especially on 10 man.

You should try this as quickly as possible (I recommend Thorim's) as the addition of extra Conquest Badges from 10 man is well worth it, and the fight is still very simple.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Splug » Mon May 04, 2009 10:01 am

aleyona wrote:
Jasari wrote:If you've cleared Ulduar on easy mode, you should be starting hard modes... that's progression.


There's a lot of 'hard modes' that really aren't that hard. I would say when you've one-shot a boss two weeks in a row it's time to start hard modes. If you're still working on progressing through the remainder however, you probably want to save the wipes for new content rather than trying for hard modes.

A lot of it is based on when the guild is ready for it - If you're not the guild master / officers it's not something you should be worrying about. If you are, then the above is a good guideline.
Are you talking about 10 or 25? Heroic: Lose Your Illusion is about the only bona fide hard mode that's been completed by more than about 10 US guilds, and even that one's not really a joke. There's a few progression elements (Freya with one elder, Flame Leviathan with a tower or two) that aren't too bad, but you'll want to finish the whole zone on 25 at least once before investing effort into the ramped up fights.

Now on 10... it's a little more reasonable. Thorim's not bad at all, Iron Council's kind of a joke, Vezax doesn't get too much worse, and Hodir is doable if you're willing to forcewipe for a few hours with a heavily stacked raid.

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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby aleyona » Mon May 04, 2009 12:29 pm

Splug wrote:Are you talking about 10 or 25? Heroic: Lose Your Illusion is about the only bona fide hard mode that's been completed by more than about 10 US guilds, and even that one's not really a joke. There's a few progression elements (Freya with one elder, Flame Leviathan with a tower or two) that aren't too bad, but you'll want to finish the whole zone on 25 at least once before investing effort into the ramped up fights.

Now on 10... it's a little more reasonable. Thorim's not bad at all, Iron Council's kind of a joke, Vezax doesn't get too much worse, and Hodir is doable if you're willing to forcewipe for a few hours with a heavily stacked raid.

-Splug


Concerning completing 'Hard Mode' pre-farm I was referring specifically to the progression difficulties. There are some that are simply movement fights and not attrition or gear-checks. As a result, depending on your guild's strength, it makes sense what you choose to do. Most guilds excel in one of the two major areas. First is mechanics - knowing specs/rotations/maximizing characters; This is most guilds. Some guilds excel in coordination, knowing where to move when and actually doing it. Both of these styles show continued progress, and you can tell how they are based on what bosses they stumble on. Some guilds have everything, some have none.

When determining anything, you have to be aware of what your guild is capable of and good at. This is where good leadership comes in.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Belloc » Mon May 04, 2009 12:58 pm

aleyona wrote:
Splug wrote:Are you talking about 10 or 25? Heroic: Lose Your Illusion is about the only bona fide hard mode that's been completed by more than about 10 US guilds, and even that one's not really a joke. There's a few progression elements (Freya with one elder, Flame Leviathan with a tower or two) that aren't too bad, but you'll want to finish the whole zone on 25 at least once before investing effort into the ramped up fights.

Now on 10... it's a little more reasonable. Thorim's not bad at all, Iron Council's kind of a joke, Vezax doesn't get too much worse, and Hodir is doable if you're willing to forcewipe for a few hours with a heavily stacked raid.

-Splug


Concerning completing 'Hard Mode' pre-farm I was referring specifically to the progression difficulties. There are some that are simply movement fights and not attrition or gear-checks. As a result, depending on your guild's strength, it makes sense what you choose to do. Most guilds excel in one of the two major areas. First is mechanics - knowing specs/rotations/maximizing characters; This is most guilds. Some guilds excel in coordination, knowing where to move when and actually doing it. Both of these styles show continued progress, and you can tell how they are based on what bosses they stumble on. Some guilds have everything, some have none.

When determining anything, you have to be aware of what your guild is capable of and good at. This is where good leadership comes in.


Which hard modes, exactly, are simply movement fights? Flame Leviathan is definitely attrition/gear-check, XT-002 introduces new adds and requires high DPS (gear check), Iron Council increases the healing and DPS requirement AND movement, Hodir requires excellent positioning, healing, movement, and NUTS dps, Thorim requires excellent dps and healing, Freya requires all of the above (boss and adds hit harder, boss gains 3 abilities), and Vezax already tends to be tough on healer mana, though that might be due to issues with my raid. I cannot speak for Mimiron or Yogg.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Panzerdin » Mon May 04, 2009 1:59 pm

MImiron requires fantastic DPS and excellent raid awareness... It's actually more tightly tuned that M'uru according to Ensidia.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Big Mushy » Mon May 04, 2009 8:43 pm

I'd just like to thank everyone for their input, I'll discuss with the other officers tonight before our 10 man and just work out when we want to go into hard modes, I'll also look deeper into the strats to work out which of the hard modes is actually the easiest Senador suggested FL with Thorims tower active so I might just have to check that one out too...


Thanks again for all the help and suggestions
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Bastien » Wed May 20, 2009 4:35 pm

I agree that some are easier than others, and (depending on the size and consistency of your group) you kinda just know. Sequential one-shots are a good yardstick thoough.

Our 10man group has yet to down Vezax and Yogg, but we almost got XT-hard mode last night (almost by accident). At the first heart phase, everyone just went all out, and we realized that the heart was low. Almost everyone on vent simultaneously said "Go for it!". So we pushed it out, started hard mode.... Didn't get him down, but we got to about 20%. Next try we just killed him on normal and kept moving. But hard mode isn't too far out in the future for us.

Flame Leviathan with 1 tower is still easy mode, imo. Definitely worth doing for the extra emblem.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Fedaykin98 » Fri May 22, 2009 12:01 pm

This week, my group one-shotted FL, XT, Kolo, Auriya, and Razorscale (were running out of time, went back for easy lutz) on 10-man in an hour and a half.

On our second night, we one-shotted Hodir and Freya. When we were doing Thorim, we noticed coming out of the gauntlet that we needed to wait 30 seconds to avoid triggering Hard Mode. We went for it.

I think we made 3 attempts at Hard Mode, and got him to 10% on our best effort. I think it's doable, especially as we didn't intentionally stack our DPS - May is here with its attendance issues.

Went ahead and did Thorim easy for the one-shot, and then got Mimiron depressingly close to down (both bottom and middle were dead, head was at maybe 35k).

Next week, we're planning to really try some hardmodes. We can easily kill Thorim if we stack our DPS. I'd pay real money to do XT on hard, as I'm currently enthralled with the idea of Aesir's Edge.

BTW, we are running 3 healers on pretty much every fight. On some fights that's overkill, and on some fights it seems like 3 is good. Any thoughts?
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Seloei » Fri May 22, 2009 11:24 pm

The best way to see if you have too many healers, is have one drop out and change to dps on that bossfight, if it's doable without major mistakes from the raid where they take extra daamge you can do it with 2 or maybe even with just 1 healer.
Once everyone knows the fights, the only place where i can think about on 10man, where you need 3 healers is mimiron hard mode. The rest can be done with 2 competent healers and non-stupid dps.
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Re: When to aim for hard modes?

Postby Cakes » Sat May 23, 2009 1:09 am

Fedaykin98 wrote:
BTW, we are running 3 healers on pretty much every fight. On some fights that's overkill, and on some fights it seems like 3 is good. Any thoughts?


We run a 3 healer, 2 tank, 5 dps 10 man with both a healer and tank dual speccing as a dps class. So far I think the only hard mode fight we've needed 3 healers for was Freya and maybe XT tonight. Hodir hard we usually run with 2 healers, as well as Thorim hard. We do Yogg with 2 unless we start eliminating watchers, and I'm pretty sure we do Vezax with 3 as well.

Overkill healing really isn't a bad thing unless you're trying to meet an enrage timer (or some damage mechanic that functions like an enrage timer). There have been plenty of times where we've wiped for hours because people just "barely" died, and we went back to a 3 healer setup and breezed through the fight. Do what feels comfortable, and if it feels too comfortable, change it next time around to give yourself a challenge.
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