Expertise & Reckoning

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Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Phez » Mon May 11, 2009 2:42 am

Ok, so I was over in Dalaran the other night and came across this paladin (turns out he's a guildy) who looked like he was in decent gear but his HP was really low (I know, don't judge a book and all that stuff). Went and inspected him and he looks like he's geared in 25 Naxx level stuff. He had quite a lot of avoidance/mitigation including two avoidance trinks so that accounts for the ~25k HP that he was showing. Anyway...

I went and checked out his spec because i'm always interested in seeing how other paladins run. He had one of the most interesting specs I had ever seen. Something like 0/66/5 or something like that with points in pretty much every prot area he could with the 5 in parry in the Ret tree...I was trying to figure out why he had 5/5 reckoning and his reasoning behind it, I was going to ask him when he logged out so I didn't get the chance. What I came up with (mental theorycrafting; I have no idea if this is true or not) is that he has enough expertise for a hard cap to prevent a boss from parrying (sp?) his reckoning?

A) Is it possible for a paladin tank to hit the hard cap with expertise to pull this off? I know we get 6 from talents, he's human so there's another 3 from sword specialization, and we get 10 (I think) from having DP up with the glyph. Is this a possibility?

B) I don't have access to armory or anything like that here at work but if you guys could look it up and critique his gear/spec, I could bring it up back home from the desert and I could talk with him about it and maybe figure out a way for him to be more effective, or at least figure out why he's spec'd the way he is. Here's his info (again, can't link w/out access): (Server) Gorgonnash [US] (Guild) Requiem (Character Name) Eric (it has one of those ASCII characters in it I'm pretty sure)

Any help would be appreciated guys, not looking to bash or anything like that, it just brought up a couple questions that you guys might be able to answer for me. Thanks for the help.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Rehlachs » Mon May 11, 2009 3:10 am

Phez wrote:A) Is it possible for a paladin tank to hit the hard cap with expertise to pull this off? I know we get 6 from talents, he's human so there's another 3 from sword specialization, and we get 10 (I think) from having DP up with the glyph. Is this a possibility?


I don't know if it is possible, but using SoV in combination with a 5/5 Reckoning is probably not the best idea.

B) I don't have access to armory or anything like that here at work but if you guys could look it up and critique his gear/spec, I could bring it up back home from the desert and I could talk with him about it and maybe figure out a way for him to be more effective, or at least figure out why he's spec'd the way he is. Here's his info (again, can't link w/out access): (Server) Gorgonnash [US] (Guild) Requiem (Character Name) Eric (it has one of those ASCII characters in it I'm pretty sure)


http://us.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gorgonnash&n=Er%C3%AEc - for those that can access armory

Eric's only item with expertise is the badge ring and he doesn't use Glyph of SoV.
Looking at his glyphs, missing dual specc and his specc itself I guess that Eric is a Holy Paladin that tried to go Prot for a while - without proper research.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Phez » Mon May 11, 2009 3:29 am

I don't know if it is possible, but using SoV in combination with a 5/5 Reckoning is probably not the best idea.


Yes I was aware of that, I forgot to put in there that IF he was going to do that, would running with SoR with 5/5 reckoning be enough to make up for the loss of SoV stacks and such. I'm pretty sure it's not what with the 10% proc chance as opposed to the constant threat increase and all that math that Threk does involved in it. Again, it was just the only thing I could think of to justify the spec that I saw.

Thanks for linking the armory Rehlachs, maybe there'll be more replies with it right there for people to look at. I'll admit that I didn't get a good look at everything, just noticed the level of gear he had along with the spec and thought it was a little akward and wanted to get differing opinions on it.

I was the MT of the guild before I deployed and maybe he is a recent addition to the guild to pick up my place until I get back or something. We'll see what happens when I get back home in a few weeks.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Argali » Mon May 11, 2009 5:43 am

TBC called and wants their tanking talents back.

Things you've asked have already been answered in various stickied threads.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby theckhd » Mon May 11, 2009 7:16 am

Eric is woefully misguided in his glyph and talent choices. His gearing choices aren't bad for his gear level, though I'd replace the parry/stam gem in his shoulders with a dodge/stam gem. I'd second the guess that he's a Holy paladin due to his glyph choices.

All of my reccomendations here are assuming he wants to tank something in a raid; if he's just specced for tanking a heroic or two, then it's probably not worth worrying too much about.

Glyphs: He's currently using Righteous Defense, Judgement, and Divinity as his major glyphs.
  • He should definitely drop Divinity for Divine Plea, as the mana return from Divinity isn't important and prot doesn't need an innervate.
  • RD is optional, it's convenient to have, but with two taunts it probably isn't that important anymore. I use HoR more than RD nowadays anyway. He should replace this with either the HoSalv glyph (if he wants another cooldown) or the Seal of Vengeance glyph (if he wants more threat). If you're just tanking Naxx/Maly, HoSalv probably isn't worth it. It's a little more useful in Ulduar if you know how to use it properly.
  • Since his expertise is low (11), the SoV glyph will be a larger threat boost than the Judgement glyph. If he's intent on keeping RD, then he should swap the Judgement glyph for SoV to optimize his threat, at least until he gets to around 20 expertise without the glyph active.
  • If you're still running Naxx, that last (empty) minor glyph slot should get a Sense Undead glyph.

Talents: Where to start....
  • He NEEDS another point in Ret for 1/2 Improved Judgement. I don't care where it comes from, but without it he can't be practicing a proper 969 rotation, so he can't possibly be putting out the type of threat he's capable of. He's probably losing out on 500-1000 TPS just due to this one talent point.
  • Reckoning is bad, and he shouldn't be specced into it. One of those points can go to Imp Judgement, the other 4 can go wherever his heart desires really. We just have so many better options at this point that nobody should be specced into Reckoning.
    Reckoning is 11 DPS and 16 TPS per talent point, which is a terrible investment. He'd get a far bigger yield by putting one of those points in Imp Judgement and the other 4 in SotP (14 DPS and 40 TPS per talent point, for 4*40=160 TPS and a massive, probably triple-digit increase in threat generation from doing a proper 969).
  • He really only needs one point in Spiritual Attunement. However, if he's not pushing a deep-ret Crusade build, he has points to spare and this is one place he can spend them if he doesn't feel comfortable with our mana regen mechanics. More experienced tanks usually drop to 1/2 SA once they get used to keeping Divine Plea up.
  • Improved Hammer of Justice is.... meh. It's optional for sure, and mostly for fun. You could make an argument that it's a utility talent for spell interrupts, but the simple truth is that it's useless for most tanks. You can't use it to reliably interrupt anything with a cast time less than 2 seconds once you account for reaction time and latency, because you should be casting something every GCD in your 969 rotation. If you're sitting there waiting for a cast so you can react, you're not generating threat.
    That doesn't mean it's useless, since there are several fights where bosses cast or channel spells for 3+ seconds (Vezax, Iron Council just off the top of my head). But even with a 20-second cooldown, you won't be able to interrupt everything on those fights, so you'll need other interrupters anyway. The number of cases where a 20-second HoJ has saved a raid wipe must be very few indeed.
    All that considered, if he's generating enough threat, it's fine to leave those points there. If he wants more threat, one could move to SotP to max it out. Outside of a major point shift into ret to push for PoJ, Conviction, or Crusade, there's nowhere else to spend them.
  • Divinity is also optional. This talent has sparked a lot of debate on these forums, which I'll leave you to find yourself if you're interested. The best summary I can give you is that it's useful, but a very weak return on your talent point investment. I can guarantee there are cases where it would have saved my life had I had it, but those cases inevitably fell into the "healer error" category or the "warrior forgot to re-apply demo shout" category. Under ideal conditions it does virtually nothing but increase overhealing. If I had to estimate a value for it, I'd say that it's 5 talent points that might save you from a wipe 1% or less of the time, but its value depends greatly on how good your healers are - it gets better with worse healers, and worse with good healers.
    However, if you're not pushing a Conviction/Crusade build for threat, then it's as good a place to spend 5 talent points as any other, in my opinion. If I weren't going with Crusade, I'd probably do a 5/60/6 build that takes 5/5 Divinity just for the extra survivability, however small, since I'm not a huge fan of the Imp LoH build myself.
  • Divine Sacrifice/Guardian are optional, but I'd highly recommend he keep them. If you know how to use them effectively, they can be immensely valuable, and I will guarantee any paladin that uses them effectively will prevent more wipes with these three talent points than 5/5 Divinity will ever save you from. Even if you only ever main-tank, these points are great, because there are a great number of fights where you don't have 100% face time with the boss.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Phez » Mon May 11, 2009 11:24 pm

Argali wrote:TBC called and wants their tanking talents back.

Things you've asked have already been answered in various stickied threads.


Thanks for the completely unhelpful remark. I've read the stickies and I understand them.

The question I asked wasn't whether or not reckoning was a good talent pick (I believe we all know that it's not good for tanking), but whether it is possible to hit the expertise parry cap to prevent a parry gib from reckoning. Wowwiki says:
60 expertise (about 492 expertise rating at level 80) to prevent parries...8.2 Expertise Rating per point of Expertise.
Without even going into gear/gems/enchants a human paladin can get to 19 (Combat Expertise (6), Sword/Mace specialization (3), Glyph SoV (10)) 60-19 = 41 = 336.2 expertise rating. Expertise gems/enchants are +16 Gems (Precise Scarlet Ruby), Enchant Bracers/Gloves +15 each. So with gear, is hitting the cap even an option? Searches on google and this site do not bring this question up that I have been able to find, or do not answer the question.

Theck, thank you very much for your insightful, helpful advise. I haven't met Eric yet, however since he's in the guild I thought I should see what kind of help I can give them until I can come back and take my spot back. I didn't have a lot of time to go through and analyze everything that he had going for him and I appreciate the thorough follow-up of his gear/talents. If he is serious about learning to be a pally tank then i'll point him in this direction and see if he can pick some information up.

If he's not really that serious about tanking and has just been picking up the gear and decided to give it a shot while i've been gone, then when I'm done with my tour over here in the giant sandbox, i'll just go back and get geared up enough to roll with our guild in 10/25 Ulduar. Theck, again thank you, I really appreciate your help.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby theckhd » Tue May 12, 2009 5:58 am

If you want, feel free to point him to my post. I think I was careful enough to not be condescending, we all had to start somewhere after all. I cringe when I think back to my first few days of tanking before I got serious about it and headed here.

As far as hitting the parry cap, I guarantee you can hit it. I was sitting at 40 expertise in my current ulduar tanking gear before I dropped the SoV glyph for HoSalv, just because several pieces are very expertise heavy. And that's without gemming or enchanting for it. You only need 52 expertise to hit the parry cap, and ~100 expertise rating (which is all I'd need to push myself above the cap in that configuration) wouldn't be hard to pick up between gear and gems.

That being said, while you can reach for it, you shouldn't. When below the dodge cap (26 expertise), expertise is an "acceptable" threat stat. I say "acceptable" because while it's OK on gear, you should never gem for it. You can see on this set of graphs that STR, Hit, BV, and AP are all better for threat than expertise, even below the dodge cap.

You can see from the third graph in that post that once you reach the dodge cap, expertise loses half it's effectiveness. At that point, even Agility, Crit, and Armor Penetration are better than expertise (and agility would give you dodge and armor too!). To be fair, this graph doesn't include Reckoning in the analysis, but it's not going to make expertise as good as Hit or STR; it's just such a small component of your DPS, and expertise does so little for the rest of our threat generating moves.

Hit follows a similar pattern, it's very good below the melee hit cap (8%), and terrible above it. So as an analogy, you could try and gem/enchant for reaching the spell hit cap (17%). But you shouldn't, because above 8% hit you'd see much better returns from gemming pure STR.

And of course, all of this assumes you're actually gemming for threat. Most tanks won't need to do that, as they should be more focused on gemming for avoidance/EH so they stay alive. In my experience so far in Ulduar, the most common cause of aggro loss is tank death, not poor threat generation.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Khayne » Wed May 13, 2009 12:01 am

Phez wrote:The question I asked wasn't whether or not reckoning was a good talent pick (I believe we all know that it's not good for tanking), but whether it is possible to hit the expertise parry cap to prevent a parry gib from reckoning.


Really, Parrygibbing "could" happen.

But iirc some maths were made on broken promise vs. last laugh threads on how much less damage would we take if we used 2.6 instead of 1.6 (you can think of 1.6 weapon as 2.6 weapon with what, 40% haste? Reckoning is mere haste talent aswell).

The damage intake difference was quite minimal. not to mention all bosses dont even got the parry haste mechanic anymore.

If you'd be thinking reckoning caused parry gibs are dangerous, you could aswell refuse to upgrade to a fast tanking weapon.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby theckhd » Wed May 13, 2009 1:24 pm

Khayne wrote:Really, Parrygibbing "could" happen.

But iirc some maths were made on broken promise vs. last laugh threads on how much less damage would we take if we used 2.6 instead of 1.6 (you can think of 1.6 weapon as 2.6 weapon with what, 40% haste? Reckoning is mere haste talent aswell).

The damage intake difference was quite minimal. not to mention all bosses dont even got the parry haste mechanic anymore.

If you'd be thinking reckoning caused parry gibs are dangerous, you could aswell refuse to upgrade to a fast tanking weapon.

Not just "could." I'd go as far as to say that parrygib** will happen to you; maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but at some point in your tanking career. It's statistically possible, so given a large enough sample size it's bound to happen eventually.

However, the point is that while it's possible, it's not probable. The likelihood that you will get parry-gibbed is very, very small, especially since several of our primary threat moves can't be parried at all. I will virtually guarantee that whatever survivability increase you get by stacking expertise to reach the parry cap is insignificant compared to the survivability increase you'd see by stacking an equivalent item allocation of a real survival stat like dodge, parry, armor, etc.

In other words, you should never stack expertise, because:
  • As a threat stat, it's inferior to STR, hit, block value, and several other stats. Since there's no STR-cap, you will always be better off sacking STR than expertise. So you should never stack expertise for threat.
  • As a survival stat, it's inferior to virtually every real survival stat. The amount of "effective avoidance" you get through that 26 expertise is dwarfed by the amount of real avoidance you'd get by stacking dodge (for example) in its place. So you shouldn't stack expertise for avoidance.
  • I may be going out on a limb here, but I'd be willing to bet my DMC:G that I'm right about this: You'll probably see a bigger threat increase and avoidance increase by stacking 30 STR and 70 Dodge rating than you would by stacking 100 expertise rating above the dodge cap. STR is almost 4 times better than expertise for threat, so you're guaranteed a bigger benefit there, and I have trouble believing that 1 expertise rating is even close to 5% as effective for survivability as dodge, no less 70%. You'd probably be massively ahead in both categories if you split the STR and dodge 50/50 or 90/10. So you should never stack expertise because it gives you "a little bit of both."
Thus, there's absolutely no situation where it's to your advantage to stack expertise. Take it on gear if you have to, since it helps a little bit with snap aggro. And don't write it off as useless; it's still a threat gen stat, if not an ideal one. The SoV glyph is so good for this exact reason - while it's a weak threat stat, the glyph gives us such a massive amount of it that it's worth using. But never gem or enchant for it.

**Note that I'm talking about dying due to a parry-hasted regular attack, the original definition of "parry-gib" referred to a parry-hasted Crushing Blow, which is no longer a concern. However, that's of little comfort to a tank who just died due to a parry-hasted melee attack that hit them for 20+k, as many bosses can at this point in time. Despite the formal definition, I think "parry-gib" is as good a term as any to describe that situation.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Khayne » Wed May 13, 2009 5:23 pm

Dunno if you quoted me to agree or disagree there, Yes, you will at some point die because of parry hasted attack.
But it's allmost as likely that you die because your tanking weapon happens to be 1.6 speed isntead of 2.6 speed.

And i'd allmost bet i could reduce raid wipes much more if i could boost my dps by 10% (you're talking to a guy that has had several boss wipes with boss at 0% health left). At 2k dps that 10% would add up to 120k health on boss in a 10 minute fight, and i've had many wipes below 100k. Your damage might be just enough to make sure razorscale don't lift off again, or XT drops heart instead of casting tantrum one more time before it, or etc. etc.

Given enough tries, even the smallest numbers will happen. Regardless of how small the chance is, wif it's possible, it will happen at some point. I mean just tonights ulduar raid i got to a point where i weer living with 9hp on me by XT at certain point. From 42k buffed or so.

Trying to cap expertise for survival is abit as if you'd stack parry for threat since more parries=>more melee haste to us.

While in both it's better to just get more efficient survival and threat stats by themselves.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby theckhd » Wed May 13, 2009 7:58 pm

Khayne wrote:Dunno if you quoted me to agree or disagree there

I was agreeing with you, insofar as I was saying that you could strengthen your statement from "could happen" to "will happen."
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Scottzirra » Thu May 14, 2009 3:29 pm

Phez wrote:O What I came up with (mental theorycrafting; I have no idea if this is true or not) is that he has enough expertise for a hard cap to prevent a boss from parrying (sp?) his reckoning?


Parry gibbing no longer exists since crushing blows have been removed. It was only a real issue when bosses would eat all of a warriors shield block charges, before the cooldown was up (In the BC days). I know there is a post here somewhere that goes over it depth, but I am too lazy to find it for you.

SoV scales pretty poorly with Reckoning too I believe
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Fridmarr » Thu May 14, 2009 3:41 pm

I get the perception that folks think that reckoning causes some huge spike in parry gib potential. Like if both parts of a double swing caused by reckoning were parried, you'd eat two instant attacks or something, but that is not the case. Reckoning increases your total number of attacks that can be parried, not all that differently than a fast weapon versus a slow weapon. There is some compression potential where parry hasted swings could be concentrated across the reckoning uptime, so it's slightly more dangerous than that, but it's not going to be a dramatic difference.

That said, it's just not an efficient way to spend talent points for threat, especially considering you'll likely take a little more damage because of it.
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Re: Expertise & Reckoning

Postby Dorvan » Thu May 14, 2009 3:51 pm

I'd agree with all of theck's comments except with regard to Imp HoJ. In Ulduar the benefit of Imp HoJ isn't the interrupt: as pointed out, the fact that it's on GCD and still has a long cooldown compared to other classes makes it of limited use in that regard. The real benefit of Imp HoJ is having a *stun* on a shorter cooldown. There are several fights in Ulduar that involve adds, and many of these adds are stunnable. As a result, Imp HoJ can come is handy for everything from reduceingthe damage you take from adds to helping someone gain a little distance when kiting a mob.

That said, I don't have it myself right now (I'm using DS/DG atm), but I do consider it a pretty competitive option for Ulduar.
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