Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

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Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Candiru » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:18 am

I was thinking of taking both these talents for ignis. I can aura mastery a flame jets to stop my healers being interupted, and I can boost my armour as an extra CD.

The only question is where to pillage the spare point from?

I can see the following as good candidates:

Imp.Judgement
Use exorcism every other time. Some loss of ranged pickup utility.

Touched by the Light
Lowers your threat by quite a bit, and weaker SS on yourself.

JotJ
If you have a pet DK/Warrior/druid tank.

Redoubt
Since BV isn't as important in Ulduar.

I'm leaning towards Imp.Judgement, but the increased risk of JotJ downtime might make me take TbtL.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby neokai » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:01 am

Might want to link your original talent spec or your proposed talent spec (less that 1 missing point) to facilitate discussion.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Candiru » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:40 pm

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVcdMZi0 ... dxo:GpkVcm

is what I am thinking of, only not necessarily lacking the point in Tbtl!
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Scottzirra » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:24 pm

I am somewhat curious as to why BV does not play a large roll in ulduar still. is it because of the lack of aoe trash? because, speaking as a paladin over the def "cap", over block cap, and 33k hp unbuffed, i see little else to gear for at this time. Sure, i could pile an increasing amount of dodge/parry taking a larger itemization hit due to the DR, or i could even get hit cap (that is not going to happen). Completely unbuffed my BV is 1805, i think, 1800+ at any rate, and with everything spooled up, and fully raid buffed I am blocking for very close to 3k often. 2.7-2.9k regularly. the vast majority of the fights i have downed in 25 man ulduar: 9/14 bosses (see exodus at draktharon.com) contain bosses that hit for 13-28k, of course not accounting for flame levi or hodir's frost punches, steelbreaker's fusion punch, and a few other specials. So assuming on the extreme high end I am getting hit for 30k, which is roughly 70% of my life, and blocking for close to 3k of that, i think i prefer the 10% reduction 100% of the time over 100% reduction 3-5% of the time. I would rather have the consistent mitigation, and straight damage line, then waste itemization points by using dodge/parry (on the dr) and pushing my block well over the cap.

On a note more related to the actual subject of this thread, I am curious as to whether Aura Mastery increases the bonus healing effect of imp devo aura. Could it be used not only as a panic button for armor, but also for aoe raid heals?

this is the spec that I am looking at: 13/52/06 http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sVcdMZV0tAzuRusIufkxo

I personally use HoJ as an interrupt often but i would rather have an extra 10 seconds on the cooldown than i would lose all hope of using optimal rotation on the auto tank fights.

edit: i felt that it perhaps was not clear what i meant about losing itemization due to DR. I mean that it will take an increasing amount of rating, and therefore itemization points, to recieve the same bonus to pure avoidance. Whereas block value itemization is a clear gain on all boss fights from both a mitigation stand point and a threat stand point.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Candiru » Fri May 01, 2009 3:50 am

Avoidance used to be amazing in TBC, due to the fact that at 50% avoidance, adding 1% avoidance is twice as good as at 0%. At 98% adding 1% avoidance halves the damage you take!

With DR this ramping benefit of avoidance is lessened. But that dose not mean that stacking more avoidance is bad. if you stack the appropriate mix of dodge/parry/def I think it still scales positively from the graph I remember. just not as much as before.

Aura mastery sadly does not scale your increased bonus effects such as 6% healing. I think it still scales with the 50% more armour though?
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Sun May 03, 2009 9:24 am

It scales with no talents at all. No armor no nothing. It's a pathetic survival cooldown in general.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Scottzirra » Tue May 05, 2009 10:04 pm

Candiru wrote:Avoidance used to be amazing in TBC, due to the fact that at 50% avoidance, adding 1% avoidance is twice as good as at 0%. At 98% adding 1% avoidance halves the damage you take!

With DR this ramping benefit of avoidance is lessened. But that dose not mean that stacking more avoidance is bad. if you stack the appropriate mix of dodge/parry/def I think it still scales positively from the graph I remember. just not as much as before.

Aura mastery sadly does not scale your increased bonus effects such as 6% healing. I think it still scales with the 50% more armour though?


it is not that i do not understand/agree that avoidance is still decent. I just fail to see why BV is less important in ulduar. If there is some theorycraft/dmg graph that someone could link to support this claim, it would be fantastic.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Conaan! » Wed May 06, 2009 12:20 pm

Scottzirra wrote:
Candiru wrote:Avoidance used to be amazing in TBC, due to the fact that at 50% avoidance, adding 1% avoidance is twice as good as at 0%. At 98% adding 1% avoidance halves the damage you take!

With DR this ramping benefit of avoidance is lessened. But that dose not mean that stacking more avoidance is bad. if you stack the appropriate mix of dodge/parry/def I think it still scales positively from the graph I remember. just not as much as before.

Aura mastery sadly does not scale your increased bonus effects such as 6% healing. I think it still scales with the 50% more armour though?


it is not that i do not understand/agree that avoidance is still decent. I just fail to see why BV is less important in ulduar. If there is some theorycraft/dmg graph that someone could link to support this claim, it would be fantastic.



because in naxx, you had bosses that hit for 8k or so, thats pretty much all the bosses in naxx, in ulduar, even on 10 man, its 8k MINIMUM, BV scales with smaller faster hits, but the bigger and slower it gets worse, and frankly, i think thorim is the only place where BV scales well, as his attack speed increases during the fight (bosses only, not trash or adds)

basically, block 2k off every hit, your still getting hit for 6k and up, but if you avoid it, even if it was a one shot (say like 50k melee), your still alive

and believe me, avoidance streaks are awesome, especially on auriaya trash or thorim trash
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Fri May 08, 2009 11:07 pm

BV does not scale with swing speed (other than speeds fast enough to burn through HS).
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby theckhd » Mon May 11, 2009 7:34 am

The other problem is that many of the bosses in Ulduar have relatively fast swing timers, and can hit for 15+k with each swing. Blocking 3k off of a 20-30k hit is good mitigation, but two 27k hits in 2 seconds will likely still kill you.

I don't think ignoring block value entirely is necessarily the way to go, but I wouldn't gear for it early on. My impression is that this is the reason T8 is itemized the way it is. Early on, stack the avoidance and EH gear, and once you've upgraded the better part of your gear you can start using the 4-piece T8 to boost your overall mitigation through block value. We're just not currently at that point yet.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Conaan! » Mon May 11, 2009 11:13 am

Majiben wrote:BV does not scale with swing speed (other than speeds fast enough to burn through HS).


incorrect, its importance scales with how fast the speed is, since a faster speed means it will be a smaller attack (attack speed and damage are relative to each other when designing how much damage is hitting the tank)
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Mon May 11, 2009 3:54 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Majiben wrote:BV does not scale with swing speed (other than speeds fast enough to burn through HS).


incorrect, its importance scales with how fast the speed is, since a faster speed means it will be a smaller attack (attack speed and damage are relative to each other when designing how much damage is hitting the tank)
That is wrong. That is a faulty assumption. Simply because fast attacks are often small doesn't mean they are tied to each other. Case and point: Patchwerk off tank. Extremely fast but not in any way small. You're spreading a misconception.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon May 11, 2009 4:12 pm

Hatefuls are the exception, because they choose their target based on health, they can get away with being both huge and fast. Blizzard has used attack speed tweaks to tune bosses a little more favorably for blocking (Ingis and Maulgar for instance), while keeping the boss' DPS roughly the same but lowering the hit size. Swing speed is a factor in damage calculations, and a faster base attack speed will decrease the hit size with all else being equal. From boss to boss it will vary, but generally speaking bosses with faster base attack speeds have smaller individual hits relative to their melee based DPS.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby majiben » Mon May 11, 2009 5:50 pm

The fact remains that BV value is not tied to hit speed unless the rate is more than 1.1 hits per second. It's tied to the size of the hit. Sometimes the size of hit has a relationship with swing speed but that is not a given. For instance, window increases both her speed and hit size, no relationship where increased speed means smaller hits. Same with gluth, same with his chow, same with a multitude of other mobs.
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Re: Imp.Lay on hands + aura mastery. Where to take the point?

Postby Scottzirra » Thu May 14, 2009 2:53 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Scottzirra wrote:
Candiru wrote:Avoidance used to be amazing in TBC, due to the fact that at 50% avoidance, adding 1% avoidance is twice as good as at 0%. At 98% adding 1% avoidance halves the damage you take!

With DR this ramping benefit of avoidance is lessened. But that dose not mean that stacking more avoidance is bad. if you stack the appropriate mix of dodge/parry/def I think it still scales positively from the graph I remember. just not as much as before.

Aura mastery sadly does not scale your increased bonus effects such as 6% healing. I think it still scales with the 50% more armour though?


it is not that i do not understand/agree that avoidance is still decent. I just fail to see why BV is less important in ulduar. If there is some theorycraft/dmg graph that someone could link to support this claim, it would be fantastic.



because in naxx, you had bosses that hit for 8k or so, thats pretty much all the bosses in naxx, in ulduar, even on 10 man, its 8k MINIMUM, BV scales with smaller faster hits, but the bigger and slower it gets worse, and frankly, i think thorim is the only place where BV scales well, as his attack speed increases during the fight (bosses only, not trash or adds)

basically, block 2k off every hit, your still getting hit for 6k and up, but if you avoid it, even if it was a one shot (say like 50k melee), your still alive

and believe me, avoidance streaks are awesome, especially on auriaya trash or thorim trash


Perhaps you misunderstand. Allow me to provide an armory link (only ScottZirra in the game)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drak%27Tharon&cn=Scottzirra&gn=Exodus

Completely unbuffed I am combined 39% dodge/parry. My main point is that I think it is foolish to spend itemization points on these at this point given the DR. Not to mention that I am already over block cap, and adding more avoidance in place of BV would push that block rating off the table, and would therefore make it also wasted itemization. Given a 40% avoidance rate, the odds that I will actually take 2 back to back 30k's is essentially low enough to not worry about. And I still operate under the assumption that my incoming heals are fairly constant, with the exception of timed boss specials, which means that dropping 10% off of EVERY attack (and lets be honest it is closer to 20% on a lot of fights) will allow my healers to go longer than if I were an avoidance tank. As an avoidance tank, you tend to require no heals for a period, then require massive heals, and then no heals again. The problem is that your healers cannot predict this incoming damage, and therefore must heal as if you were always in the period requiring more heals. By reducing all incoming melee attacks by 10-20%, and gearing in favor of this, I have allowed for my healers to have a predictable tank to heal, and therefore be more efficient.

EDIT: if you are RELYING on a dodge to let you live through a 50k hit, then u are doing it wrong. RNG will eventually cause you to wipe, even if you are 99% avoidance. But let's be honest, most bosses arent hitting for 50k. 25k off an ulduar boss is still a huge hit granted, but knocking 3k off each of those swings brings the total damage down to 44k, which assuming 0 heals I could just BARELY survive, and that is assuming that both of those will be blocked, not even accounting for 40% avoid I currently have. I still have yet to see compelling evidence to support an avoidance vs BV arguement.
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