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Divinity.

Postby Shroomous » Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:42 am

I don't understand why this talent is downplayed so much. Yeah, MTs are overhealed all the time. But, we spec AD because it's there when it counts. I think this is a similar talent. On difficult content I'm not always going to be completely topped off. In fact, there might be periods where I'm bouncing around in the mid-range, under heavy fire, for a few seconds for whatever reason. An incoming heal that is 5% more effective and brings my health a little higher could easily be what prevents the next hit from killing me. Hots are going to tick for more. A heal that might have underhealed me a bit might top me off, letting my healer(s) throw a heal somewhere else or save some mana. There are just tons of little examples like this, it's not always just "tank is always kept topped off or he dies."
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Re: Divinity.

Postby knaughty » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:56 am

(1) Divinity is such a weak healing talent that most sensible Holy Paladins will skip it.

(2) We have better things to get, that actually mater for our role. There's a defence for 3/5 just to get deeper in the tree, but you should be collecting mitigation or TPS talents. That's your actual job.

(3) We're already the easiest tank to heal due to block-cap + built-in 6% healing bonus.

(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Basically: If Divinity was seriously useful, no other tank could tank. Therefore, content will be tuned such that Divinity isn't useful for prot.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Fenris » Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:54 am

Knaughty wrote:(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Blood dks have one (+ one on cd)

The "minor" difference is that the dks' one is 10% for 2 points (and with the added bonus of keeping blood presence self-healing in frost presence).....And compared to that,5% for 5 points is quite weak ^^'

Anyway,blood tanking is more based on "healing-mitigation" so it works better there than it could for us
A heal that might have underhealed me a bit might top me off, letting my healer(s) throw a heal somewhere else or save some mana.

One of the main problems is that divinity saves no time/mana for our healers.If they need to chain heal to keep you alive,they'll need to keep chain heal even with that 5% bonus,so it wont make any difference
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:16 am

We really needed another "Divinity is good, why doesn't anyone appreciate it?" thread.

It's all been said before, but now that down ranking is removed, healers are either hitting you with really big heals, a lot of which goes to overhealing. +Healing these days is primarily so that AOE heals and DoTs will be a little more effective, not so that you can keep the tank up easier.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Ajax » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:00 am

does divinty affect JoL ? I dont tend to run with a reti and as such its always my job to keep light up at all times, now in aoe damage heavy fights surly a extra 3% (i would only put in 3 points max) is worth it considering the other options we have to do just to get up the talent tree ?

If not then 2 imp hammer and 1 divine sac will be the way i plan to go.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Levantine » Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:02 am

Fenris wrote:
Knaughty wrote:(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Blood dks have one (+ one on cd)

The "minor" difference is that the dks' one is 10% for 2 points (and with the added bonus of keeping blood presence self-healing in frost presence).....And compared to that,5% for 5 points is quite weak ^^'

Anyway,blood tanking is more based on "healing-mitigation" so it works better there than it could for us


Wrong~

Improved Blood Presence

Read: +healing only works while in Blood Presence.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Torquemada » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:05 am

As I think I mentioned before in the last Divinity thread, Divinity is designed to give Holy something to spend 5 points on to get deeper into the Prot tree for PVP. I think it's their attempt to make 51/20/0 more appealing than 37/0/34, but I don't see it happening until they move JotW too low for Holy to get it with any build for PVP.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:30 am

Knaughty wrote:(1) Divinity is such a weak healing talent that most sensible Holy Paladins will skip it.

This is a fair argument, and it's true that it's quite weak.

Knaughty wrote:(2) We have better things to get, that actually mater for our role. There's a defence for 3/5 just to get deeper in the tree, but you should be collecting mitigation or TPS talents. That's your actual job.

Divinity will be the first thing I drop for TPS when I need TPS talents, but until I need them, I'll probably have Divinity.

Knaughty wrote:(3) We're already the easiest tank to heal due to block-cap + built-in 6% healing bonus.

We also have the lowest health, everyone gets that 6% healing bonus, and the majority of burst is magic (afaik that doesn't change in Ulduar). I don't think anyone outside the Tankadin forums will argue that Paladins are the easiest to heal.

Knaughty wrote:(4) No other tank has a +heal received talent.

Basically: If Divinity was seriously useful, no other tank could tank. Therefore, content will be tuned such that Divinity isn't useful for prot.

The same could be said for Ardent Defender, the block cap, etc. That doesn't make it a useless talent.

I'll probably take 5/5 Divinity until I need the points elsewhere. Is it a weak talent? Absolutely, but so is 2/4% more damage. Divinity is poorly designed and it perpetuates the idea that Paladins are trash tanks and not meant to tank "real things." Ultimately we're arguing over something that'll make no real difference either way, but I'll be taking the weak talent over the irrelevant one, at least until it becomes relevant.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Shroomous » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:09 am

5/5 is debatable, because if we're stretching every last bit of survivability imp LoH is probably better and it keeps us from getting that. It's all going to depend on the mechanics of the fights we see though.

Divinity is obviously not going to help healers save mana or anything like that. What it WILL do, potentially, is make it so an incoming heal (or combination of hots) brings us back to enough health so that the next hit doesn't kill us. In other words, like AD (but not nearly as good), it's a talent that has the potential to save our lives at a critical moment.

If you're overhealed 100% of the time, fine, you overgear the content, congratulations - that's not the situation we are worried about. On difficult content, tanks actually die, and div can prevent that.

The argument that a typical tank death is from burst damage is just as much in favor of div as it is against it, because that burst damage is never a one-shot, it's a hit --> UNDERHEAL --> death. The +healing isn't great but it's a hell of a lot better than some minor white damage that we don't need.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Eanin » Sat May 02, 2009 11:09 am

I currently am using this build. I've got 5/5 Divinity. Since I never lose aggro, I simply don't need anymore. I do, however, occasionally die. What I want is survival talents and it's either this or Imp. Lay on Hands. They're both Survival talents, but in general, I prefer constant talents over triggered ones, which is a playstyle choice.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Khayne » Sun May 03, 2009 12:25 pm

I skip on divinity since in current fights having Imp. HoJ i feel i can save myself or raid more often by stunning that random add on boss fight, or interrupting that cast just a few times more often. Not to mention i rather get more threat and possibly get to use Hand of Salvation (which i'll glyph once i get the said glyph) one more time or slightly longer on myself in that fight on the most critical moments.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Treck » Mon May 04, 2009 6:28 am

While I agree its not a very strong talent, i also put my points in there since threat really isnt an issue (general is, but i dont think its worth having for one fight, once trying hardmodes on that a more threatbased specc, if not a dk/warr/druid will do the taking)
As someone pointed out when you die you dont die from oneshot (if you do you failed somhow anyway).
Its a hit, then another hit, maybe a heal or two but your not topped up and another hit kills you.
Sure divinity stacks up a lot in overhealing since you wanna be at 100% health most of the time dont you?
But those 5% more healing recieved wont hurt and can be a lifesaver.
Saying Divinity only adds to overhealing is like saying 1/2% more dmg done only adds to overthreat (wow moar dps!) but if your at 600k threat and the closest dps is on 500k, 1/2% wont do more than your dpsincrease but wont help your survival much (imo atleast)
On the matter that we are easiest to heal.
Id guess imp devo aura 6% and divinity stacks.
However devo aura is raidwide and also doesnt stack with tree form if you got a restodruid with you.
With best in slot Ulduar gear Paladins will pass warriors in terms of HP, dont know how druids have it now tho, but DKs will still be ahead since their scaling is higher.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby Wolvar » Tue May 05, 2009 9:22 am

My deal is the trade-off. I run with a crusade spec (No POJ, 5/5 conviction) and I've lately noticed more and more overkill shots of 2-3k or less which makes me think divinity may help. I don't run with a lot of pallies so DG is super attractive. This means if I take 5/5 Divinity and DG then I have 13 points to put in Ret. When you look at the final 3, 2/2 SA and 2/2 POJ is more attractive than 3/5 Conviction.

So my trade-off becomes, 5% more healing versus 5% crit + 3% overall damage + 3% more against crusade mob types. That's a LOT of threat/dps to give up. :/
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Re: Divinity.

Postby neokai » Tue May 05, 2009 9:58 am

Wolvar wrote:My deal is the trade-off. I run with a crusade spec (No POJ, 5/5 conviction) and I've lately noticed more and more overkill shots of 2-3k or less which makes me think divinity may help. I don't run with a lot of pallies so DG is super attractive. This means if I take 5/5 Divinity and DG then I have 13 points to put in Ret. When you look at the final 3, 2/2 SA and 2/2 POJ is more attractive than 3/5 Conviction.

So my trade-off becomes, 5% more healing versus 5% crit + 3% overall damage + 3% more against crusade mob types. That's a LOT of threat/dps to give up. :/


Well most of the time the comparison is made between having DS/DG and 3/5 Divinity, so your situation is not exactly the norm.

Your question boils down to playstyle: Do i want that 5% extra healing or do I want the extra 5+% extra dps/threat (the talents factor out to about that much).

The way I see it is this: If you MT and your threat cap is so much higher than your 2nd threat, logic states that Divinity should be taken, even if it gimps your tps. I mean, if 5% does not matter, why bother to flask stoneblood for encounters then? But because Divinity offers a really poor bang-per-point efficiency, some people really wonder if it's worth spending so many points.

The original "Divinity post 3.1" thread raised a valid point, that Divinity is not such a useless talent with bosses hitting this hard. Subsequent iterations are suffering diminishing returns, but people still ask the same question. Why? Because no one can definitely resolve it. In the end, it is a judgment call that only each prot pally can make for himself.

P.S. I am a Crusade Prot with DS/DG.
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Re: Divinity.

Postby theckhd » Tue May 05, 2009 10:11 am

Wolvar wrote:My deal is the trade-off. I run with a crusade spec (No POJ, 5/5 conviction) and I've lately noticed more and more overkill shots of 2-3k or less which makes me think divinity may help. I don't run with a lot of pallies so DG is super attractive. This means if I take 5/5 Divinity and DG then I have 13 points to put in Ret. When you look at the final 3, 2/2 SA and 2/2 POJ is more attractive than 3/5 Conviction.

So my trade-off becomes, 5% more healing versus 5% crit + 3% overall damage + 3% more against crusade mob types. That's a LOT of threat/dps to give up. :/

I've been tempted to test out the build you're suggesting as well. Sustained threat has not generally been an issue so far, but snap threat often is. It's unclear whether a 5% threat bonus makes enough of a difference there though - usually it's the difference between a miss or a hit on a major threat move, which is more like 50-100% threat (assuming you've only had time to get one or two moves off on the mob/boss).

Wondering whether it's worth dual-speccing prot/prot for a few nights so I can test it out, but swap back and forth fight to fight.
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