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Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

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Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Avengeance » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:34 pm

Before you say it's pvp talent, I've been playing with it for 3 nights in ulduar, both 10 and 25. With a normal prot spec and Improve HoJ, your HoJ is 20 sec CD (remember, its interupt/stun/both). Now from the fights Ive seen in Ulduar, trash included, there are many situations that its so useful that you have a stun or a interupt, espeically in 10 men when your raid composition is limited...

Many trash have heals/high dmg/some weird abilities that you can interupt or even full stun, I wont go into details on those, but lets take a look at bosses:

Razorscale:
The trash waves coming in the encounter consists of some nasty add that chainlightning and lightning bolt (which in some of our tries managed to 1 shot a healer). They are stunnable, and they should be kept stunned at all times. Sometimes you get 2 of these adds in 1 spawn, so having a 20 sec stun is ever so priceless imo.

XT002:
The robots are all stunnable, if you are OTing the big robots like I am, getting them stunned every 20 sec helps reducing inc damage... or stunning that annoying boom bot when its running towards the melee.

Iron Council:
The smallest boss is stunnable.. nuff said.

Auriaya:
The feral defender is stunnable too, and should be kept stun at all times. A nice combo is taunt it at <10%, stun it away from raid, let it die and drop the void zone. With 20 sec HoJ u can probably stun the add 2-3 times in its life time depending on your approach in dealing with it.

Thorim:
Thorim 25 Hallway adds (i havent done the arena part myself) has healer and 2 melee mobs that melees 9k. Healer heals to full if a heal goes through.... 20 sec stun will just get you 2 stuns per trash pull, and ready again for next pull's healer. Stunning those melee adds reduces dmg taken by a lot while your dps bangs on them (if you dont... they stun you back with their abilitys).

Mimiron:
I havent done 25 yet, but in 10, in p3, the assault bots melee for like 20k, keeping them stunned most of the time + kite them helps reduce a lot of damage, 20 sec HOJ will get u 2 uses per assault bot most of the time.

General Vezax:
Helps interupting the flame spell thing incase your rogue fell asleep or something.

There are probably more uses that I cant think of right now, but just trying to pass a message forward, it's not a useless talent, I always specced it even in 3.08, and now it costs less points. With my current spec i sacrifice 2 points in Divine Guardian to get it (10% less absorb on DS... not too painful).
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Levantine » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:02 am

Doesn't change the fact that HoJ is still on the GCD.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Nelofear » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:07 am

Tbh it's a matter of personal preference like PoJ. I agree about GCD very annoying =)
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Kynes » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:54 am

I have used Imp HoJ more times than I can count in ulduar. Everything from trash to kiting the snaplasher to (before the change) preventing our hunter kiting assault bots from getting gibbed. I love it.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:35 am

It being on the GCD is a PITA and dumb. That being said, it's been in my build for as long as I can remember.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Solare » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:24 am

While HoJ IS on the global cooldown, having even such on a 20 second cd instead of a 40 second (or 1 min) cd makes it that much more useful. And while I'm sure this has been said with enough repetitiveness to bore a horse that's already been beaten to death with a stick; but our threat production is so superior that even against my most competitive dps, I can waste a GCD or two to get an interrupt in now and then.

That being said, it still isn't ideal. And, of course, paladins will probably never get an interrupt that's off the GCD for PvP reasons (which never made a lot of sense to me) and honestly; I really expected that our 11pt talent would have been an GCD-free interrupt of some sort. If they had done that, the need to add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice would have never been necessary, and it currently feels gimmicky right now.

But think about this: As far as paladin interrupts go, this is as good as it gets right now.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby badgermonkey » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:15 am

Levantine wrote:Doesn't change the fact that HoJ is still on the GCD.



969 is not a doctrine that you are never ever allowed to deviate from. It is merely the method to produce maximum TPS. If you have a threat lead, then using a GCD to stun a hard hitting mob for 8 seconds, or interrupt a nasty boss ability, is fine.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:19 am

badgermonkey wrote:
Levantine wrote:Doesn't change the fact that HoJ is still on the GCD.



969 is not a doctrine that you are never ever allowed to deviate from. It is merely the method to produce maximum TPS. If you have a threat lead, then using a GCD to stun a hard hitting mob for 8 seconds, or interrupt a nasty boss ability, is fine.


The issue is not deviating from the 969, it'sthe fact that you can't interrupt something for 1.5 seconds after you cast a spell. This means that to interrupt spells with a short cast time you'd have to stop everything and wait for them to start casting to insure that you won't be stuck on GCD.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Wolvar » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:32 pm

They should make hammer and LOH work the same way that Avenging Wrath does. Where it *causes* a GCD but can be cast during a GCD.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Scottzirra » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:12 pm

I had these 2 points elsewhere, but the interrupt is VERY handy in 25 man Ulduar. And given the other options in those tiers of the tree, Imp HoJ is great.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Eaglestrike » Fri May 01, 2009 3:42 am

I'd really like to get this, but I'm currently spec'd for DG and we only have one holy paladin so his SS isn't always on or always on me, so it's nice for me to have that. On the other hand...man do I wish I had that stun up more in many situations in Ulduar.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby MotiVater » Fri May 01, 2009 9:26 am

Exactly the same for me. I'm not sure I can justify the points from anywhere else as it stands. Right now we have NO other paladins in Ulduar of any spec so having imp SS when I'm MT and Imp DSac when I'm OT is probably too good to let go of and thats the only option of where to drop points in Prot really.

The other option is to go 1/3 in Crusade of course. Worth considering, I'm just worried of losing the ability to use Glyph of HoSalv due to less threat gap.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby theckhd » Fri May 01, 2009 11:50 am

Wolvar wrote:They should make hammer and LOH work the same way that Avenging Wrath does. Where it *causes* a GCD but can be cast during a GCD.

Are you sure about that? I could have sworn it was the other way around - that they don't cause a GCD but can't be cast during one either.

I say this because there are many times where I've hit my LoH or AW button but not had it go off because of GCD due to another ability. In addition, I'm fairly sure that you can cast AW and follow it immediately with another ability (like ShoR), since that's how I usually have to fit it into my rotation.

I'm fairly sure this is how those two abilities work, but I'm not willing to bet the farm on it due to lack of sleep and faulty memory. I'll be glad to test it when I get home to make sure though.

<edit> oh yeah, as for the OP: Imp HoJ is useful insofar as you can stun things more often, but it's usefulness as an interrupt is fairly low for the GCD-related reasons given. Until they take HoJ off of the GCD (possibly via a deep prot talent or something to limit access for Ret and Holy), it will always be too weak to rely on for interrupts. If you have to sit there not casting anything just so you can nail that interrupt, your raid is paying the price for it - they'd get much more efficient performance out of someone who does have an off-gcd interrupt that can perform their primary job at the same time.
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby Dracora » Fri May 01, 2009 1:53 pm

Theck do you really have 573 defense?
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Re: Usefulness of Improve HoJ in Ulduar

Postby theckhd » Fri May 01, 2009 3:25 pm

Dracora wrote:Theck do you really have 573 defense?

Yeah, but only because I logged out in an odd set of gear. Most of the upgrades I've gotten in Ulduar so far have been very defense-heavy, so I've been messing around with different gear sets to optimize. Before I logged last night, I was messing around swapping in and out different pieces of gear to check EH and avoidance differences with Tankadin, and must've forgotten to re-equip my default tanking set.

That being said, I've been known to run with 560 or more defense in certain gear sets - sometimes the best pieces for the job just happen to be defense-heavy. If the alternatives are lower-EH and lower-avoidance despite being more evenly-optimized, it's still a poorer choice.

But yeah, the upgrades have been fast and furious this week - I think I got 4 or 5 tanking items this past week alone. So I really need to set aside some time this weekend to sit down and re-optimize, re-gem, re-enchant, etc. I'll likely be swapping out some defense gems/enchants for more straight STA, since there have been a few fights lately where an extra 2k HP or so would've been really useful.
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