Rawr.ProtPaladin

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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:33 am

Code: Select all
2 * damageTaken / BossAttackValue = 0.5 * %damageTaken


You doubled the damage taken but ignored that the BossAttackValue has to double for you to take twice the damage. Also, I think you meant "2 * %damageTaken."

Code: Select all
2 * damageTaken /( 2 * BossAttackValue) = %damageTaken


And for the sake of argument, I can ignore AttackSpeed because:
Code: Select all
damage / AttackSpeed = dps

%damageTaken = damageTaken / BossAttackValue

= (damageTaken / BossAttackSpeed) / (BossAttackValue / BossAttackSpeed)

    (damageTaken * BossAttackSpeed)       damageTaken
= ----------------------------------- = ---------------
  (BossAttackSpeed * BossAttackValue)   BossAttackValue


I think you should ignore boss DPS for the Mitgation Points. However, if you're going to ignore boss DPS, you have to ignore BossAttackValue and BossAttackSpeed to maintain consistency. If a boss starts hitting twice as fast, I'm going to take twice as much damage. That's just common sense. So why is that not reflected in the Mitgation Points?

Yes you do. Mitigation Points in this model is the amount of damage you didn't take, and depends on what the boss can hit for.


Rawr is used to optimise gear, but according to ProtPaladin's Mitigation Points, the best way for me to improve my gear is to wait for the boss to enrage and hit me for 500 000 damage. It makes no sense.

Furthermore, why would EH remain a constant? If the boss hits me for 1 damage, a minute amount of EH is all that's required, but EH never changes now matter how hard the boss hits. Protpaladin has a rating system where EH is absolute, but mitigation is dependant on how hard the boss hits. That's inconsistent, and it shows when extreme BossAttackValues are used.

BossAttackValue = 500: ProtPaladin says "Stam is best." Uh, why do I need lots of stam when I'm being hit for 500 every 2 seconds?
BossAttackValue = 100 000: ProtPaladin says "Stack avoidance." Luckily, it won't let me set it any higher. If I could set BossAttackValue to 1 000 000, ProtPaladin would be telling me that avoidance is the best by far, even though a landed hit would one shot me.

The accuracy of how one model defines a ranking for a rating is irrelevant to how other models do it. That's why it is a different ranking model.


If all the models use the same rankings, people could compare between them. That would be very interesting and useful.

EDIT:
The general purpose of a MitigationScale is, to offer preset values that suit different ranges of raiding tiers,
while trying to set the Scale so that EH is roughly equal to Mitigation Points.
A default value for the scale is given, which is 1.0 and no one demands that you change it.
You can change it, when you want that Overall Points favor one rating over the other.
BossAttackValue and Speed are usually constant, you set those values according to the Boss you fight.


How are people supposed to reasonably decide which items are best when the BossAttackValue slider and the Mitigation Scale slider do practically the same thing? It's hopelessly confusing for someone who doesn't know the underlying formulas for the Mitigation and Survival Points.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:52 am

Slept wrote:You doubled the damage taken but ignored that the BossAttackValue has to double for you to take twice the damage. Also, I think you meant "2 * %damageTaken."


NO. You are messing things up. YOU doubled the damage the boss deals from 40k hits pre armor to 80k hits pre armor, you DON'T double the % of damage taken. Damge Taken is AFTER Damage Reduction, BossAttackValue BEFORE.

Slept wrote:I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage

is what you claimed. This is simply false.

This is your starting point:
%damageTaken = 24000 damageTaken / 80000 BossAttackValue = 0.3
%damage mitigated = 1 - %damageTaken = 1 - 0.3 = 0.7 => damageMitigated = 80000 * 0.7 = 56000 damageMitigated

24000 damageTaken + 56000 damageMitigated = 80000 BossAttackValue.

You now double your %damageTaken:

2 * 0.3 %damageTaken = 0.6 %damageTaken. damageTaken = 80000 * 0.6 = 48000

you changed damage taken, which changes your damageMitigated

%mitigation = 1 - %damageTaken = 1 - 0.6 = 0.4 => damageMitigated = 80000 * 0.4 = 32000

48000 damageTaken + 32000 damageMitigated = 80000 BossAttackValue.

"I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage"

24000 damageTaken * 2 = 48000 correct ?

56000 damageMitigated / 32000 damageMitigated = 1.75 correct ? is that mitigating twice as much damage ? is it ?

The BossAttackValue did not change. Why should it.
You do realize that you can take more damage because your gear gets worse no ?

The Boss doesn't have to hit you harder for you to take more damage. Go naked, go figure.

Your %damageTaken can increase by changing the following things:

%damageTaken = AverageDamagePerAttack / BossAttackValue, we agreed on the BossAttackValue not to change.

AverageDamagePerAttack = DamagePerHit * %Hit + DamagePerCrit * %Critical + DamagePerBlock * %Block

Obviously, either your avoidance, your block chance, your chance to be crit, your Block Value or DamageReduction (Armor, RF, BoSanc)
has changed.

%DamageReduction = (Armor / ([467.5 * Enemy_Level] + Armor - 22167.5)) * 100

DamageReduction is not Mitigation !
DamageReduction is the amount you reduce damage by
Mitigation is a measure of how much of the incoming damage the tank takes, on average.



This is how these terms are defined:

Damage Absorbtion = represents the amount of physical damage a player can withstand.
For instance, a character with 5000 health and 50% armor would be able to absorb 10000 damage before dying.

DA = (player health) / (1 - (% damage reduction given by armor in decimal form).

For example, a character with 1000 health and 31.24% damage reduction would be able to absorb 1000 / (1 - .3124) = 1454 (rounded) damage.

Damage Reduction% = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * (AttackerLevel + 4.5 * (AttackerLevel - 59)))


Slept wrote:I think you should ignore boss DPS for the Mitgation Points.

I'm NOT ignoring it, when you look at dps values, DPS is Damge PER 1 Second.

(A / C) / (B / C) = (A / C) * (C / B) = (A * C) / (B * C) = (A / B). Looks familiar ?

(Damage1/AttackSpeed) / (Damage2/AttackSpeed) = (Damage1 / Damage2)

(1 damage / second ) / (2 damage / second) = (1/2) = 0.5 it's a proportion. No units.

Slept wrote:However, if you're going to ignore boss DPS, you have to ignore BossAttackValue and BossAttackSpeed to maintain consistency. If a boss starts hitting twice as fast, I'm going to take twice as much damage. That's just common sense. So why is that not reflected in the Mitgation Points?

Consistency ? What good is a proportion if you don't set it in relation to its origin ?
A mitigation of 0.5 doesn't tell you anything. The boss could be hitting for 10 damage and you'd never even know that your Mitigation kinda is irrelevant because you have like 45k HP raid buffed.
The other way around: The boss could be hitting for a million damage and you wouldn't know that your mitigated damage exceeds your Health because you only look at a number that says "0.5".
If your Mitigation Points are much much greater than your EH, your toe nails should be flipping upside down.
AttackSpeed? Your not gonna avoid any more or less on average, just because the boss hits 60 per minute instead of once.
Oh right, your incoming dps may change. Tell them to put one more healer on you.

Slept wrote:Rawr is used to optimise gear, but according to ProtPaladin's Mitigation Points, the best way for me to improve my gear is to wait for the boss to enrage and hit me for 500 000 damage. It makes no sense.

You're being a jerk. Why do you think Overall Points is a sum of EH + Mitigation Points.
Also, on boss enrages, why do people pop shieldwalls and avoidance tinkets on Patchwerk / Maexxna ?
If you don't have enough EH, you're in the wrong instance. A boss enrage of 500k is hardly a gearing issue.

Slept wrote:Furthermore, why would EH remain a constant? If the boss hits me for 1 damage, a minute amount of EH is all that's required, but EH never changes now matter how hard the boss hits. Protpaladin has a rating system where EH is absolute, but mitigation is dependant on how hard the boss hits. That's inconsistent, and it shows when extreme BossAttackValues are used.

So you're telling me your armor suddenly disintegrates and you're unable to dodge/block/parry etc just because the boss hits harder or faster ?
What's the point of this, if the boss hits you a trillion time in one second or once every time the Milkyway rotates around the center of the universe. Your EH will NOT CHANGE NO MATTER WHAT because your gear doesn't change during combat. (kay now tell me that you forgot to repair, will you). You don't look at one ranking alone. You look at the Overall Value.

Slept wrote:BossAttackValue = 500: ProtPaladin says "Stam is best." Uh, why do I need lots of stam when I'm being hit for 500 every 2 seconds?
BossAttackValue = 100 000: ProtPaladin says "Stack avoidance." Luckily, it won't let me set it any higher. If I could set BossAttackValue to 1 000 000, ProtPaladin would be telling me that avoidance is the best by far, even though a landed hit would one shot me.

Is overgearing content a bad thing ?
Ever thought of why those rogues that tanked Shahraz had 100% avoidance ?

Slept wrote:If all the models use the same rankings, people could compare between them. That would be very interesting and useful.

Although I agree that it's interesting to see what the gearing philosophy of Tankpoints is compared to TTL, sometimes apples are apples, and oranges are oranges. It's the result (gear setup) it spits out, that is interesting. Not the individual ranking points.

Slept wrote:How are people supposed to reasonably decide which items are best when the BossAttackValue slider and the Mitigation Scale slider do practically the same thing? It's hopelessly confusing for someone who doesn't know the underlying formulas for the Mitigation and Survival Points.

You set the BossAttackValue, you equip gear to get "enough" EH for this boss.
You want your gear to be balanced around Mitigation Points being roughly equal to EH.
Usually you can leave the Scale where it is, but when you enter content that is harder or easier than what you come from, you can tweak the scale to gear differently. That's what the scale is about.

Remember that EH = Mitigation Points means,
that your EH is enough to survive the amount of the incoming Damage damage you actually take, on average.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:18 pm

NO. You are messing things up. YOU doubled the damage the boss deals from 40k hits pre armor to 80k hits pre armor, you DON'T double the % of damage taken. Damge Taken is AFTER Damage Reduction, BossAttackValue BEFORE.


I'm not messing anything up. You're mangling my example to suit your purposes. Simple intuition is enough to know that when a boss hits twice as hard %mitigation does not change. If you double the BossAttackValue in ProtPaladin, the Total Mitigation in the Defensive Stats section barely changes and the Survival Points don't change. The Mitgation Points double. ProtPaladin is currently telling the user that Survival Points are not based on BossAttackValue even though a harder hitting boss obviously will require more EH.

The Boss doesn't have to hit you harder for you to take more damage. Go naked, go figure.


Obviously. Mitigation Points works just fine if BossAttackValue never changes, but, as I've shown with numerous examples, it becomes inconsistent when you do change it.

Slept wrote:I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage


is what you claimed. This is simply false.


The Boss doesn't have to hit you harder for you to take more damage. Go naked, go figure.


Again, you're ignoring that the BossAttackValue doubled in my example. If you take more damage and the BossAttackValue doesn't change obviously your mitigation is worse. If the BossAttackValue doubles, your %mitigation stays the same.

we agreed on the BossAttackValue not to change


I never agreed to that anywhere. Why have a slider to set BossAttackValue if it doesn't change?

Consistency ? What good is a proportion if you don't set it in relation to its origin ?
A mitigation of 0.5 doesn't tell you anything. The boss could be hitting for 10 damage and you'd never even know that your Mitigation kinda is irrelevant because you have like 45k HP raid buffed.


EH is irrelevant too! So why does ProtPaladin tell people that Mitigation Points are useless against trivial content, but leave EH at the same value. It's confusing for the user.

The other way around: The boss could be hitting for a million damage and you wouldn't know that your mitigated damage exceeds your Health because you only look at a number that says "0.5".
If your Mitigation Points are much much greater than your EH, your toe nails should be flipping upside down.
AttackSpeed? Your not gonna avoid any more or less on average, just because the boss hits 60 per minute instead of once.
Oh right, your incoming dps may change. Tell them to put one more healer on you.


You're trying to do too much with these ratings and it's making them hard to use. I'm never going to use ProtPaladin to tell me if I have enough effective health. I'm going to tank the boss and if he gibs me, I'll put more EH on. If I'm taking too much damage, then I'll ask for another healer or get more avoidance/mitigation.

You're being a jerk. Why do you think Overall Points is a sum of EH + Mitigation Points.
Also, on boss enrages, why do people pop shieldwalls and avoidance tinkets on Patchwerk / Maexxna ?
If you don't have enough EH, you're in the wrong instance. A boss enrage of 500k is hardly a gearing issue.


Don't insult me. I've taken a lot of my time to show you why your rating system is confusing to users. If you choose to ignore my comments then that's your perogative, but it won't make your product better.

So you're telling me your armor suddenly disintegrates and you're unable to dodge/block/parry etc just because the boss hits harder or faster ?
What's the point of this, if the boss hits you a trillion time in one second or once every time the Milkyway rotates around the center of the universe. Your EH will NOT CHANGE NO MATTER WHAT because your gear doesn't change during combat. (kay now tell me that you forgot to repair, will you). You don't look at one ranking alone. You look at the Overall Value.


My point is that your armor doesn't change at all, in any way. So why do the Mitigation Points change?

Why would I look at the overall ranking? The one I can mess with completely just by moving the Mitigation Scale (or BossAttackValue)slider? Arbitrary ranking is arbitrary.

You set the BossAttackValue, you equip gear to get "enough" EH for this boss.
You want your gear to be balanced around Mitigation Points being roughly equal to EH.
Usually you can leave the Scale where it is, but when you enter content that is harder or easier than what you come from, you can tweak the scale to gear differently. That's what the scale is about.


It doesn't even work like that. I'm almost all BiS slot gear from the last tier of content. For me to get me Survival Points and Mitigation Points equal with the Mitigation Scale slider set to 1.0, I have to reduce the BossAttackValue to 11 000. I think there must be a bug in there somewhere.

I really don't have anything more to add at this point. You can either use the feedback that the ranks are too confusing, or you can ignore it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:25 pm

Keep the personal insults out of it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:36 pm

Slept, can you try repeating the point you're trying to make without any quoting and rebuttals cutting it up?

I'd like to see something concise with a good example of an alternative.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:01 pm

I'd really like that.

English is not my native language and I have a hard time to understand your motivation.
Some terms that the community use seem to be synonymous to other terms that actually aren't the same thing for all of us.

I explained how the foumulas for certain rankings are defined and what the meaning of those rankings are.
You use my terms but don't follow the formulas We're bound to disagee. You use terms like 'common sense' and 'intuition' to verify some your postulations, which I can not follow. If you disagree with how a particular ranking works, you're more than welcome to.
But you can not say that the formulas are wrong, just because they don't 'feel' right, and state extreme conditions that make no sense to model for. Also, you do mix a lot of terms into a sentence that describe different things.

Could you please write some formulas that describe how you would rank tanking gear?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:39 am

I'm trying to use your terms, so my terminology is shifting as I learn more about how you are defining things. I'll try to be more precise with my language.

Firstly, I use ProtPaladin as a tool to determine which gear is best, so I'm interested in how items compare in relation to each other. Comparing effective health, avoidance, and mitigation is difficult. It's nice to be able to look at a stamina trinket and a dodge trinket and know exactly how much effective health I'm trading for dodge when I swap them.

I do not use ProtPaladin to find out if I have good enough gear to tank a boss. If you zone into Ulduar with Naxx gear, your gear is good enough because Blizzard has balanced the instance around Naxx gear.

Some definitions:

Code: Select all
AverageDamageTaken = how much the damage the boss hits for on average AFTER mitigation and avoidance.
BossAttackValue = how much damage the boss hits BEFORE mitigation and avoidance.
%Mitigation = the percentage of damage that is mitigated and avoided by the tank.
%DamageTaken = the percentage of damage that the tank takes.

%Mitigation = (BossAttackValue - AverageDamageTaken)/BossAttackValue
%Mitigation = 1 - AverageDamageTaken/BossAttackValue

%DamageTaken = AverageDamageTaken/BossAttackValue

Therefore: %Mitigation  = 1 - %DamageTaken


Survival Points

Survival Points are based off effective health. Effective health is an absolute measure of how much unmitigated damage a tank can take before they die. As my gear improves, I can see my Survival Points increase.

I agree that this is a good way to show survivability.

Mitgation Points

I believe this is the formula that Bear and TankDK modules use:

Code: Select all
Constant = a constant to make Mitigation Points have a similar scale to Surivival Points.
Mitigation Points = %Mitigation * MitigationScale * Constant


I like this ranking because it will always show better gear as being better. It is an absolute measure of how much mitigation a tank has.
The Constant is entirely arbitrary and only there to make Mitigation Points have a similar value to Survival Points. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the value for the Constant is 7000 * 100 = 700 000. This is not ideal, but it does allow comparisons between Survival Points and Mitigation Points.

The user can change the weighting for Mitigation Points by adjusting the MitigationScale slider. I increased the MitigationScale for Sunwell Plateau because, once I had enough experience in the zone, I felt that mitigation as worth more in that tier of content. I consider that proper way to use the MitigationScale.


I believe this is the formula for you are using for Mitigation Points:

Code: Select all
Mitigation Points = %Mitigation * BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100


This ranking has several issues. Mitigation Points is not a simple measure of how much mitigation gear gives. It is a compound ranking that tries to indicate if gear is suitable for tanking in a given tier of content. This causes problems with Mitigation Points when using gear in tiers of content that it is not designed for.

Example 1
If I fight a boss in Ragefire Chasm in my current gear, my Mitigation Points drop to almost nothing because BossAttackValue is very low. The intent of this ranking method is to show that my Mitigation is completely unnecessary in Ragefire Chasm. However, my Survival Points, which don't change, are also unnecessary in Ragefire Chasm. Now, if I check ProtPaladins's Relative Stat Values, I find that stamina has a high ranking, indicating that it is a good stat in Ragefire Chasm. But we know that I have way too much effective health as it is, so why is ProtPaladin telling me that stamina is good? It makes both Mitigation Points and Survival Points confusing because they do not act in the expected manner, which is that both become irrelevant in Ragefire Chasm.

Example 2
I tank XT-002 in Ulduar. XT-002 enrages and starts hitting really hard. BossAttackValue has now increased hugely. Since XT-002 is hitting me really hard, I'm going to need a lot more effect health to survive those hits. However, when I check the Relative Stat Values, ProtPaladin tells me that avoidance stats are better than stamina. But I need more stamina just to survive a single hit, so stamina is actually very important. Again, Survival Points and Mitigation points do not act in the expected manner.

Both of those examples are extreme, but I chose them because they show where the ranking system fails. Extremes can tell us a lot about how a given system operates. Newtonian mechanics is accurate in everyday life, but is very inaccurate at extremely large and extremely small scales.

Unfortunately, even comparing between less extreme circumstances, this Mitigation Point ranking system does not fair well. Raiding gear trivialises level 80 five-man dungeons. Yet, when I adjust BossAttackValue from Naxx25 values down to five-man dungeon values, my Mitigation Points drop. But Mitigation Points are a measure of whether my gear is good enough for a given tier of content and whether my gear has improved. Surely my Mitigation Points would be higher in a five man because I'm wearing Naxx25 gear and the block value would start to dominate. The reduction in worth of Mitgation Points from the change in BossAttackValue swamps in the improvement in Mitgation Points from block value becoming more effective.

This makes Mitigation Points confusing and unintuitive. As my gear gets better, my Survival and Mitigation Points go up for a given tier of content. When I do an easier tier of content, my Survival points stay the same but my Mitigation Points get worse even though I out gear the content. Compare this to an absolute ranking method for Survival and Mitgation Points where improving my gear makes my Survival and Mitgation Points go up, but changing to a lower tier of content will not change my Survival Points and will improve my Mitgation Points due to block value. Survival and Mitigation Points are now both consistent.


Making Survival Points Scale with BossAttackValue

This would allow Survival Points and Mitgation Points to act in a more consistent manner in Ragefire Chasm and when tanking an enraged XT-002. However, it doesn't stop Survival and Mitigation Points from dropping in lower tier content, which, as I have already mentioned, is still confusing and unintuitive.


Phew! Hopefully that's cleared it all up.
Last edited by Slept on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:40 am

Sorry, that wasn't really concise. It took me a long time to write, so please read it carefully. :D
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:28 am

I'm going to refrain from long posts and try to address single issues on which to focus. I'm trying to avoid the vibe of "picking apart a post one by one".

I think this solves a bit about your worries, straight from our code, I snipped out a small amount to only show the relevant unclear equations we use involving mitigation points, please assume that AverageDamagePerAttack is exactly what it says on the box without me going into the hit/block/crit calculations

Code: Select all
float attackSpeed           =  ParryModel.BossAttackSpeed;
float armorReduction        = (1.0f - Lookup.ArmorReduction(Character, Stats));
float baseDamagePerSecond   = Options.BossAttackValue / Options.BossAttackSpeed;

DamagePerSecond     = AverageDamagePerAttack / attackSpeed;
Mitigation          = (1.0f - (DamagePerSecond / baseDamagePerSecond));

calculatedStats.MitigationPoints = dm.Mitigation * calcOpts.BossAttackValue * calcOpts.MitigationScale * 100.0f;


Our definition of Mitigation (not mitigation points, mind you) is based on damage per second. We had to implement this in order to factor the parry model and attack speed modification. It is only in MitigationPoints itself that we add this Boss Attack Value extra scale.

Given this clarification, does it change your point? Please only address this question, and I will work on the other bullet points in your post after we clear this up. If you have any questions about what I posted, I can clarify further.

I know I'm trying to limit it severely, but I think there's about 3 issues to be addressed in the post you made, and I don't want any of them forgotten.

Edit: I want to also stress the way I read the Mitigation Points Equation.

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Mitigation      *      (BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100);
             (Base Measurement)                        (The Scale)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:07 am

No, that has no effect on my point.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:28 am

Does that mean you no longer have an issue with attack speed affecting mitigation points, like what was your original statement?

Also:

Bear model uses

Code: Select all
calculatedStats.MitigationPoints = (17000f / calculatedStats.DamageTaken);


Is that acceptable?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:21 am

I have no issue with attack speed affecting Mitigation through parry hasting. You are calculating Mitigation correctly as far as I am concerned. I disagree with the equation where you calculate Mitigation Points.

In my earlier posts, I thought BossDPS would be a better scaling factor than BossAttackValue for calculating Mitigation Points. I have since changed my mind on that because I don't feel either one should be included in the Mitigation Points.

Is calculatedStats.DamageTaken a percentage for the Bear model? That is better, but I don't think it's quite right. I need to think about it further.

Code: Select all
Mitigation Points = %Mitigation * MitigationScale * Constant


An issue with my proposed implementation of Mitigation Points is that there is a hardcap of MitigationScale * Constant when 100% mitigation is reached, whereas effective health can keep going up. This will eventually cause Mitigation Points to look worse than Survival Points at extremely high gear levels. I'll think about it some more, because I'm sure that's solvable.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:58 am

Yeah the issue of EH is, it's completely up to the user to choose how much he wants of it.
You enter the 5man instance with too much of it but things hit for less and so Mitigation Points get smaller to the point where you don't take damage anymore and it doesn't matter if you have 1 health or 10k health.
(note: the reason you don't take damage is 100% avoidance + block chance and block value >= AverageDamageTaken)

The bear Model has the feature to choose a soft cap for Survival Points based on dungeon tier.
This makes EH not continue to get more value. And You will choose to equip gear that only has the EH needed fo what you're doing.

In ProtPaladin, you need to choose that yourself. That decision is made outside of rawr based on what you have to tank.

When you come from that patchwerk fight and rush inside the 5man instance and correct BossAttackVale to be lower, we need to change the EH soft cap too.
I myself usually did that by adjusting the Scale to make the now smaller Mitigation Points Bars match the EH bars.
But as you point out, EH is worth less too. And I agree. I set the otimizer to get a minimum health for my gear.

When Mitigation Points become zero, because you block all the damage, it only tells you that getting more avoidance is pointless. It doesn't say that getting less avoidance is good. The way we defined Mitigation (not points) depends on avoidance, blockvalue, block chance and critvulnerability. There is no negative Points and I think that is what you are telling me.

It seems that it's not the purpose of rawr Mitigation Points model to weight EH vs BossAttackValue. Rather to aid you to find a balance between the damage you can mitigate and how much EH you have. We need an EH cap.

It will still rate gear that makes you take less damage better, but when you don't take damage, something needs to happen.
Are the attributes that change Mitigation the same for us btw ? I'm not sure if we got that cleared.

Also, I found a mistake I did.
When I took the inverse of damageTaken, I actually didn't. Thanks for pointing it out, it makes me model for something completely different.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:58 pm

I think I found another culprit

Image

The Bar description is wrong, someone tried to do everyone a favor by abbreviating the Points names in the color legenda.
What the red bar represents is Mitigation Points, not mitigation.

This might work for DPS Points, when DPS Points actually is DPS.
Mitigation Points most certainly isn't mitigation.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:44 pm

I had a chat with Solieu last night, and spent a long time thinking about this when I should have been sleeping. :lol:

I like how Survival Points work right now.

For Mitigation Points, the Bear model uses:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant / %DamageTaken


I think this is probably the best that can be done for Mitigation Points. It's an absolute measure of how good mitigation is, and--most importantly--it behaves consistently. If %DamageTaken halves, Mitigation Points double. That makes sense because your mitigation is twice as good.

For extreme cases, it holds up reasonable well. As BossAttackValue tends to infinity, block value's worth drops and Mitigation Points are dependant on avoidance, the guaranteed reduction from armor and "stance" reductions:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant / (1 - %MitgationExcludingBlock)


As BossAttackValue tends to 0, block begins to dominate and it is possible to get 100% mitigation (no damage taken). Therefore Mitigations Points tend to infinity. Once 100% mitigation is reached, Mitigation Points become undefined, so it's very clear that adding more mitigation is not going to help.

The only strange case I can think of is in very low mitigation situations. If you somehow got a character with no avoidance and no armor, %DamageTaken would be 100%, resulting in:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant


This is a bit strange. Why would a character with no mitigation have Mitigation Points? "They shouldn't, but it's impossible to remove," is the answer I've settled on.

I tried a bunch of variations that would be asymtotic when %DamageTaken = 0 and equal 0 when %DamageTaken = 1:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant * (1 / %DamageTaken - 1)
MitigationPoints = -Constant * ln(%DamageTaken)
MitigationPoints = Constant * (ln(%DamageTaken))^2
MitigationPoints = -Constant * %DamageTaken * ln(%DamageTaken)


The problem with all these options is that halving the %DamageTaken does not double the Mitigation Points. In the end, I think it's best to go with:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant / %DamageTaken


The only situation when it acts strangely is actually not something that would ever occur in practise. No one is going to test ProtPaladin with a naked, untalented character with 0 defense skill and expect to get worthwhile results. At reasonable levels of gear, the equation works well.

Choosing an appropriate Constant is a bit of a crapshot. Something that gives equal Survival Points and Mitigation Points for a balanced of Naxx25 level gear is probably the best you can do.
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