Rawr.ProtPaladin

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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:01 pm

I'd really like that.

English is not my native language and I have a hard time to understand your motivation.
Some terms that the community use seem to be synonymous to other terms that actually aren't the same thing for all of us.

I explained how the foumulas for certain rankings are defined and what the meaning of those rankings are.
You use my terms but don't follow the formulas We're bound to disagee. You use terms like 'common sense' and 'intuition' to verify some your postulations, which I can not follow. If you disagree with how a particular ranking works, you're more than welcome to.
But you can not say that the formulas are wrong, just because they don't 'feel' right, and state extreme conditions that make no sense to model for. Also, you do mix a lot of terms into a sentence that describe different things.

Could you please write some formulas that describe how you would rank tanking gear?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:39 am

I'm trying to use your terms, so my terminology is shifting as I learn more about how you are defining things. I'll try to be more precise with my language.

Firstly, I use ProtPaladin as a tool to determine which gear is best, so I'm interested in how items compare in relation to each other. Comparing effective health, avoidance, and mitigation is difficult. It's nice to be able to look at a stamina trinket and a dodge trinket and know exactly how much effective health I'm trading for dodge when I swap them.

I do not use ProtPaladin to find out if I have good enough gear to tank a boss. If you zone into Ulduar with Naxx gear, your gear is good enough because Blizzard has balanced the instance around Naxx gear.

Some definitions:

Code: Select all
AverageDamageTaken = how much the damage the boss hits for on average AFTER mitigation and avoidance.
BossAttackValue = how much damage the boss hits BEFORE mitigation and avoidance.
%Mitigation = the percentage of damage that is mitigated and avoided by the tank.
%DamageTaken = the percentage of damage that the tank takes.

%Mitigation = (BossAttackValue - AverageDamageTaken)/BossAttackValue
%Mitigation = 1 - AverageDamageTaken/BossAttackValue

%DamageTaken = AverageDamageTaken/BossAttackValue

Therefore: %Mitigation  = 1 - %DamageTaken


Survival Points

Survival Points are based off effective health. Effective health is an absolute measure of how much unmitigated damage a tank can take before they die. As my gear improves, I can see my Survival Points increase.

I agree that this is a good way to show survivability.

Mitgation Points

I believe this is the formula that Bear and TankDK modules use:

Code: Select all
Constant = a constant to make Mitigation Points have a similar scale to Surivival Points.
Mitigation Points = %Mitigation * MitigationScale * Constant


I like this ranking because it will always show better gear as being better. It is an absolute measure of how much mitigation a tank has.
The Constant is entirely arbitrary and only there to make Mitigation Points have a similar value to Survival Points. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the value for the Constant is 7000 * 100 = 700 000. This is not ideal, but it does allow comparisons between Survival Points and Mitigation Points.

The user can change the weighting for Mitigation Points by adjusting the MitigationScale slider. I increased the MitigationScale for Sunwell Plateau because, once I had enough experience in the zone, I felt that mitigation as worth more in that tier of content. I consider that proper way to use the MitigationScale.


I believe this is the formula for you are using for Mitigation Points:

Code: Select all
Mitigation Points = %Mitigation * BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100


This ranking has several issues. Mitigation Points is not a simple measure of how much mitigation gear gives. It is a compound ranking that tries to indicate if gear is suitable for tanking in a given tier of content. This causes problems with Mitigation Points when using gear in tiers of content that it is not designed for.

Example 1
If I fight a boss in Ragefire Chasm in my current gear, my Mitigation Points drop to almost nothing because BossAttackValue is very low. The intent of this ranking method is to show that my Mitigation is completely unnecessary in Ragefire Chasm. However, my Survival Points, which don't change, are also unnecessary in Ragefire Chasm. Now, if I check ProtPaladins's Relative Stat Values, I find that stamina has a high ranking, indicating that it is a good stat in Ragefire Chasm. But we know that I have way too much effective health as it is, so why is ProtPaladin telling me that stamina is good? It makes both Mitigation Points and Survival Points confusing because they do not act in the expected manner, which is that both become irrelevant in Ragefire Chasm.

Example 2
I tank XT-002 in Ulduar. XT-002 enrages and starts hitting really hard. BossAttackValue has now increased hugely. Since XT-002 is hitting me really hard, I'm going to need a lot more effect health to survive those hits. However, when I check the Relative Stat Values, ProtPaladin tells me that avoidance stats are better than stamina. But I need more stamina just to survive a single hit, so stamina is actually very important. Again, Survival Points and Mitigation points do not act in the expected manner.

Both of those examples are extreme, but I chose them because they show where the ranking system fails. Extremes can tell us a lot about how a given system operates. Newtonian mechanics is accurate in everyday life, but is very inaccurate at extremely large and extremely small scales.

Unfortunately, even comparing between less extreme circumstances, this Mitigation Point ranking system does not fair well. Raiding gear trivialises level 80 five-man dungeons. Yet, when I adjust BossAttackValue from Naxx25 values down to five-man dungeon values, my Mitigation Points drop. But Mitigation Points are a measure of whether my gear is good enough for a given tier of content and whether my gear has improved. Surely my Mitigation Points would be higher in a five man because I'm wearing Naxx25 gear and the block value would start to dominate. The reduction in worth of Mitgation Points from the change in BossAttackValue swamps in the improvement in Mitgation Points from block value becoming more effective.

This makes Mitigation Points confusing and unintuitive. As my gear gets better, my Survival and Mitigation Points go up for a given tier of content. When I do an easier tier of content, my Survival points stay the same but my Mitigation Points get worse even though I out gear the content. Compare this to an absolute ranking method for Survival and Mitgation Points where improving my gear makes my Survival and Mitgation Points go up, but changing to a lower tier of content will not change my Survival Points and will improve my Mitgation Points due to block value. Survival and Mitigation Points are now both consistent.


Making Survival Points Scale with BossAttackValue

This would allow Survival Points and Mitgation Points to act in a more consistent manner in Ragefire Chasm and when tanking an enraged XT-002. However, it doesn't stop Survival and Mitigation Points from dropping in lower tier content, which, as I have already mentioned, is still confusing and unintuitive.


Phew! Hopefully that's cleared it all up.
Last edited by Slept on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:40 am

Sorry, that wasn't really concise. It took me a long time to write, so please read it carefully. :D
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:28 am

I'm going to refrain from long posts and try to address single issues on which to focus. I'm trying to avoid the vibe of "picking apart a post one by one".

I think this solves a bit about your worries, straight from our code, I snipped out a small amount to only show the relevant unclear equations we use involving mitigation points, please assume that AverageDamagePerAttack is exactly what it says on the box without me going into the hit/block/crit calculations

Code: Select all
float attackSpeed           =  ParryModel.BossAttackSpeed;
float armorReduction        = (1.0f - Lookup.ArmorReduction(Character, Stats));
float baseDamagePerSecond   = Options.BossAttackValue / Options.BossAttackSpeed;

DamagePerSecond     = AverageDamagePerAttack / attackSpeed;
Mitigation          = (1.0f - (DamagePerSecond / baseDamagePerSecond));

calculatedStats.MitigationPoints = dm.Mitigation * calcOpts.BossAttackValue * calcOpts.MitigationScale * 100.0f;


Our definition of Mitigation (not mitigation points, mind you) is based on damage per second. We had to implement this in order to factor the parry model and attack speed modification. It is only in MitigationPoints itself that we add this Boss Attack Value extra scale.

Given this clarification, does it change your point? Please only address this question, and I will work on the other bullet points in your post after we clear this up. If you have any questions about what I posted, I can clarify further.

I know I'm trying to limit it severely, but I think there's about 3 issues to be addressed in the post you made, and I don't want any of them forgotten.

Edit: I want to also stress the way I read the Mitigation Points Equation.

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Mitigation      *      (BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100);
             (Base Measurement)                        (The Scale)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:07 am

No, that has no effect on my point.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:28 am

Does that mean you no longer have an issue with attack speed affecting mitigation points, like what was your original statement?

Also:

Bear model uses

Code: Select all
calculatedStats.MitigationPoints = (17000f / calculatedStats.DamageTaken);


Is that acceptable?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:21 am

I have no issue with attack speed affecting Mitigation through parry hasting. You are calculating Mitigation correctly as far as I am concerned. I disagree with the equation where you calculate Mitigation Points.

In my earlier posts, I thought BossDPS would be a better scaling factor than BossAttackValue for calculating Mitigation Points. I have since changed my mind on that because I don't feel either one should be included in the Mitigation Points.

Is calculatedStats.DamageTaken a percentage for the Bear model? That is better, but I don't think it's quite right. I need to think about it further.

Code: Select all
Mitigation Points = %Mitigation * MitigationScale * Constant


An issue with my proposed implementation of Mitigation Points is that there is a hardcap of MitigationScale * Constant when 100% mitigation is reached, whereas effective health can keep going up. This will eventually cause Mitigation Points to look worse than Survival Points at extremely high gear levels. I'll think about it some more, because I'm sure that's solvable.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:58 am

Yeah the issue of EH is, it's completely up to the user to choose how much he wants of it.
You enter the 5man instance with too much of it but things hit for less and so Mitigation Points get smaller to the point where you don't take damage anymore and it doesn't matter if you have 1 health or 10k health.
(note: the reason you don't take damage is 100% avoidance + block chance and block value >= AverageDamageTaken)

The bear Model has the feature to choose a soft cap for Survival Points based on dungeon tier.
This makes EH not continue to get more value. And You will choose to equip gear that only has the EH needed fo what you're doing.

In ProtPaladin, you need to choose that yourself. That decision is made outside of rawr based on what you have to tank.

When you come from that patchwerk fight and rush inside the 5man instance and correct BossAttackVale to be lower, we need to change the EH soft cap too.
I myself usually did that by adjusting the Scale to make the now smaller Mitigation Points Bars match the EH bars.
But as you point out, EH is worth less too. And I agree. I set the otimizer to get a minimum health for my gear.

When Mitigation Points become zero, because you block all the damage, it only tells you that getting more avoidance is pointless. It doesn't say that getting less avoidance is good. The way we defined Mitigation (not points) depends on avoidance, blockvalue, block chance and critvulnerability. There is no negative Points and I think that is what you are telling me.

It seems that it's not the purpose of rawr Mitigation Points model to weight EH vs BossAttackValue. Rather to aid you to find a balance between the damage you can mitigate and how much EH you have. We need an EH cap.

It will still rate gear that makes you take less damage better, but when you don't take damage, something needs to happen.
Are the attributes that change Mitigation the same for us btw ? I'm not sure if we got that cleared.

Also, I found a mistake I did.
When I took the inverse of damageTaken, I actually didn't. Thanks for pointing it out, it makes me model for something completely different.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:58 pm

I think I found another culprit

Image

The Bar description is wrong, someone tried to do everyone a favor by abbreviating the Points names in the color legenda.
What the red bar represents is Mitigation Points, not mitigation.

This might work for DPS Points, when DPS Points actually is DPS.
Mitigation Points most certainly isn't mitigation.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:44 pm

I had a chat with Solieu last night, and spent a long time thinking about this when I should have been sleeping. :lol:

I like how Survival Points work right now.

For Mitigation Points, the Bear model uses:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant / %DamageTaken


I think this is probably the best that can be done for Mitigation Points. It's an absolute measure of how good mitigation is, and--most importantly--it behaves consistently. If %DamageTaken halves, Mitigation Points double. That makes sense because your mitigation is twice as good.

For extreme cases, it holds up reasonable well. As BossAttackValue tends to infinity, block value's worth drops and Mitigation Points are dependant on avoidance, the guaranteed reduction from armor and "stance" reductions:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant / (1 - %MitgationExcludingBlock)


As BossAttackValue tends to 0, block begins to dominate and it is possible to get 100% mitigation (no damage taken). Therefore Mitigations Points tend to infinity. Once 100% mitigation is reached, Mitigation Points become undefined, so it's very clear that adding more mitigation is not going to help.

The only strange case I can think of is in very low mitigation situations. If you somehow got a character with no avoidance and no armor, %DamageTaken would be 100%, resulting in:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant


This is a bit strange. Why would a character with no mitigation have Mitigation Points? "They shouldn't, but it's impossible to remove," is the answer I've settled on.

I tried a bunch of variations that would be asymtotic when %DamageTaken = 0 and equal 0 when %DamageTaken = 1:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant * (1 / %DamageTaken - 1)
MitigationPoints = -Constant * ln(%DamageTaken)
MitigationPoints = Constant * (ln(%DamageTaken))^2
MitigationPoints = -Constant * %DamageTaken * ln(%DamageTaken)


The problem with all these options is that halving the %DamageTaken does not double the Mitigation Points. In the end, I think it's best to go with:

Code: Select all
MitigationPoints = Constant / %DamageTaken


The only situation when it acts strangely is actually not something that would ever occur in practise. No one is going to test ProtPaladin with a naked, untalented character with 0 defense skill and expect to get worthwhile results. At reasonable levels of gear, the equation works well.

Choosing an appropriate Constant is a bit of a crapshot. Something that gives equal Survival Points and Mitigation Points for a balanced of Naxx25 level gear is probably the best you can do.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:54 pm

Yeah about that Mitigation Points = constant

I stumbled across it when I tried to figure out wtf was wrong with my calculations
and equipped a druid bear with gear that gave him
0 armor, 0 avoidance, 0 AP (to not have savage defense), 460 resilience (uncritable), I removed all racial agility as well.
He did end up showing 100% damage taken, 0% mitigation.
Mitigation Points = 17000.

What I can tell you is: 17000 is the scalar that made the Survival and Mitigation bars roughly equal in size.
Astrylian has been very, very strict in letting Mitigation Points be a percentage.
To strecth that tiny bar [0.00, 1.00] to something in the range of EH bars, the arbitrary multiplier 17000 was deemed to be adequate.

The only trouble is, that number was never supposed to show inside the bars as rating :roll:
I guess it's possible to split the bar size from the value displayed inside. Something we're looking into.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:10 pm

In case we find a fix for this bar issue, and Mitigation Points would be an absolute measure that shows 100% when you take all the damage.

I could imagine the possibility of making gear templates depending on dungeon tier.
Lets assume a dungeon tier is defined by item level for a second.

I would then equip my character with gear of constant item level, and gem it, matching the socket color.
This set would give me some % mitigation, which is what I believe Blizz Devs also look at when they create encounters.

Could be interesting to see how the gear you wear compares to this 'Dungeon Set' ?

Like, the standard Ulduar set gives you 85% (arbitrary) mitigation. You currently have 98% of that value.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:05 pm

Yep, Solieu and I discussed that briefly.

I was thinking you could sum the item levels of your gear and use that as a multiplier for Mitigation Points. The problem with that is upgrading an item would increase the multiplier and make your Mitigation Points higher even if the item you upgraded did not increase mitigation.

Using "default dungeon sets" as comparison for your gear could be cool and avoids that issue. I'm sure people would get a kick out of seeing themselves have 150% of the Survival Points and 120% of the Mitigation points (or whatever the numbers would be) of the "default 5 man dungeon set" when they're wearing Heroic Ulduar gear.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sun May 03, 2009 10:17 am

Rev 2.2.2 is going to be released this afternoon.

Changelist: <work in progress>

- Default ranking Mode reworked.
- Two new ranking modes: ProtWarr Mode, Damage Taken Mode
- Trinket On Use effect handler. Default is set to ignore, options: Averaged, Active
- Thunderclap, Frost Feever, Judgements of the Just boss attack speed penalty works as debuff.
-
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Mon May 04, 2009 2:32 am

I'm playing with it now. I like how you've added the mitigation formulas to the tooltips for the rankings and the prot warrior option. Great work!

One very minor thing I noticed: The Target Armor slider has a "Default Tier 7 Boss" description or something like that. I adjusted it and the description went away, and now I can't find the value to get it back to that default.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Mon May 04, 2009 9:44 am

Try using the keyboard arrow keys too when you adjust the armor trackbar.
Arow left/right should change the value by 1, mousewheel by 3, clicking inside the bar or pageup/down by 1000.

I'm not happy with this. A combination of drop-down box + trackbar would be nice, to easily re/select preset values but still have the 'feel' of a trackbar.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu May 07, 2009 8:43 am

I found something weird, when I turn off the use of Holy Shield, it ranks Helm of the Faceless than T8.5 helm higher (TankPoints mode), when I turn it on, it puts T8.5 ahead. Which is odd, since a lot of the Tier helm's block rating gets pushed off the table into uselessness, where as Faceless keeps it's full glory.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby lythac » Thu May 07, 2009 8:55 am

Are you block capped with Faceless using HS? If you aren't then that could be why.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu May 07, 2009 3:24 pm

There are other factors that change when you go from hittable to unhittable. Try reducing the value of threat rating to 0, and see if there's the same sort of activity.

Remember: More avoidance = less blocked hits = less holy shield procs = less threat. When you are block capped, additional block rating will change nothing (including your threat). But if you are unhittable, the pure avoidance pushes off those blocks (and thus the holy shield threat from the blocks) I know it's not ideal, but if we are counting threat, we count *every factor* about threat. I'm sure these sort of anomalies will start to pop up more if and when we implement the tiny bit of threat from damage shield effects.

While threat points it is a good factor for eyeballing items, the common suggestion we have is when optimizing, you set your Threat Scale to 0, and simply have an optimzation requirement for the amount of TPS you want to pull. What this will do is still make you happy with the items it pulls out, but also won't greatly penalize items that incidentally provide less TPS (pure avoidance items specifically).

I wouldn't call this a sort of bug, since it's working as intended.. it's just an undesirable factor. Other than fiddling with the threat scale, can any of you think of a way to do this differently?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 07, 2009 4:08 pm

Forgive me if this comment is too basic for this discussion, but when I have tried Rawr previously (and this goes for every other gear evaluator I have tried), there is no setting for minimum values of defense.

So when I ask Rawr to optimise gear, I often end up with a set-up that makes me crittable and hence is a useless combination of gear. By the time I swap gear/gems/enchants to reach defense cap, it pretty much defeats the purpose of having an optimiser.

I would very much like if there was a way to specify minimums for both defense and for avoidance+block. I would like to shift other parameters for situational sets while maintaining at least 540 defense and 102.4 avoidance+block.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu May 07, 2009 6:39 pm

Yes, what you have described exists in Rawr.

In the optimize window, below "Optimize for" you can add a requirement for Defense Skill (for those who don't trust resilience or the block-pushing-crit-off-the-table effect), % Chance to be Crit, Avoidance, Avoidance + Block, and so on.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Koatanga » Thu May 07, 2009 7:46 pm

Excellent! I will have to re-visit Rawr.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Doriangray » Sat May 09, 2009 6:19 am

I've been trying since Thursday to wrap my mind around Rawr (the ProtPaladin extension specifically), but I'm not sure I got it yet. For the record and to see whether I maybe forgot a step, I did the following

1) Imported my character from the armory
2) Set up buffs that seemed reasonable to me
3) Increased the amount bosses hit me for (experimented with ca. 80k), enabled parry haste
4) Started optimizing

Then I'll get results that seem to value Agility very high. For example, 16 agility to boots flat out beats 22 stam until I set threat rating to 0 or close to it, and the overall scale to 0.8. Now, I'm confused and don't know whether Rawr is telling me something wrong because I don't know how to use it, or whether agility really _is_ that good. Itemization point wise, 16 agi is more than 22 stam after all, but I'm not convinced that's a good metric ;) And yes, I'm aware that "halp! rawr sez agility gud, that true?!" isn't a very good description, but I'm also kinda lost in what information is useful and what not. Maybe that my (true) avoidance is at around 52% if I remember correctly, which doesn't seem too bad, but my health is just barely over 40k, even with all applicable raid buffs. That doesn't seem that much in comparison to some others that post here, and make me think it would make, if anything, stam more important?

So the real underlying question is: are there accepted best practices how to tweak rawr ratings for ProtPaladin to make most sense? Rules of thumb that say (I'm making this up from the top of my head, so these examples will probably not make much sense) "set your scale so survival and mitigation ratings are close to equal", "make rawr optimize with additional constraints so-and-so", etc? To me, the whole thing is just very much a black box yet, and I don't like black boxes :D Not sure where to start with the thing.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Sat May 09, 2009 6:41 pm

main reason agility gets so high ranking points is the armor it gives. I don't like it either (we're used to stacking stamina heh) but it seems when bosses hit really hard, damage reduction from armor becomes really valuable.

22stam is whatever it is in effective health. There's a point where the damage mitigated by armor exceeds exactly that amount of health. So for physical attacks agility can actually be better than 22 stamina.
This combined with the avoidance 16 agility gives you can Overall (EH + Mitigation points) be a higher score than just EH.
I've actually started replacing my stam/dodge gems with stam/agi ones...I'd rather put armor on cloak and always use Tuskarr's on boots, regardless what score agility gets. Sometimes you really want pure health or live a personal flavor.

About the black box thing, just leave the mitigation scale slider at its default. You'll do fine without, it's just a bonus for tweaking gear beyond the norm.
I generally get good all-around gear sets by setting the following optimizer constraints:

Option settings: (don't forget to spec, glyph, buff)
Threat scale 0.8, Mitigation Scale 1.0, Boss, AttackValue 80k, parry enabled, Trinket on Use: ignore, Holy shield: enabled

Optimize for Overall points
- Defense Skill >= 540
- Chance to Avoid + Block >= 100
- optimize food & elixir

Anything else becomes too specialized for single encounters.

I've quite frankly given up setting minimum health for overall gear sets. It's generally easier to become block capped at my level of gear, and instead gain what block value I have as 'health'. If you find yourself dieng to ability combinations (auto attack + special attack + auto attack) set a minimum health value. 40k seems alright imho it greatly depends on where you go.
I'm working on some EH soft cap presets at the moment you can select, rawr will try to get you within a bell-shaped curve of that health value. I'm not sure if it's wise to offer that as default option.

A set for aoe-tanking would go like this:

Option settings:
Threat scale 0.8, Mitigation Scale 1.0, Lvl 82, Armor: 10331, Attack Speed 0.25, AttackValue 30k, parry disabled, Trinket on Use: ignore, Holy shield: disabled

Optimize for Overall points
- Defense Skill >= 540
- Chance to Avoid + Block >= 100
- % Spell Hit Chance >= 100 (for consecration, disable misery and the like)
- optimize food & elixir
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Tue May 12, 2009 9:16 pm

2.2.3 coming out either around noon or late night.

ProtPaladin updates:

-More special effect support for librams, trinkets and set bonus.
-Support for Thorim hard mode Unbalancing Strike as debuff.
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