Rawr.ProtPaladin

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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:34 pm

Please, please be specific about which model you are using because:

RAWR.TANKADIN IS NO LONGER UPDATED OR SUPPORTED. IT IS OLD. IT IS INNACCURATE.
Excuse the caps, but it's necessary to stress. Ermad, the original author, has stopped playing prot and works on holy and ret. Negarine and I (Solieu) have completely dropped support of Tankadin to work on our rewrite, ProtPaladin.

There is no "original author" but Negarine and Myself for Rawr.ProtPaladin, and it is generally accurate given the way that the ratings system works.

There are two or three major issues with armor that have popped up and we are working on one of the major ones.

First of all, our definitions of ratings.. Survival and Mitigation rating, uses a double dipping system on Armor and anything that provides armor, since Survival Rating is EH (Health * Guaranteed Mitigation), and Mitigation Rating is a Damage Taken % scale.. which also includes that Guaranteed Mitigation.

It is something we've put a lot of thought into and resistance over, but when it comes down to it, there needs to be more voices with good arguments with experience with the terms that base Rawr insists on using.

The other issue, which is being worked on right now, is the presence of magic attacks, which in themselves are unblockable and have no armor benefits. We should have magic attack support ready within the next release. It's a complex thing that requires a fair amount of rewriting of our damage taken calculations (to provide conformity to our own standards) so it might not be ready.

So please, again, is it Tankadin that you are referring to with the armor problem, or is it ProtPaladin (in the absolute most recent release)?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:01 pm

Sorry, I mean whatever is in the latest release of Rawr (2.2.0.9).

So, for example, this module tells me that 120 armor or 12 agility is a better cloak enchant than titanweave (16 defense). This is true even with threat scale turned all the way down, so that the crit from agility shouldn't matter. That suggests to me that armor is being over-valued.

Edit: the double-dipping effect you mention is I think what I'm seeing. I was coming around to that view myself in discussing rawr's gear rankings on my guild forums.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:40 pm

Yes, we already know that it is rated high.. do you have any suggestions though? Survival Points includes Armor reduction, Mitigation Points, by definition, include Armor Reduction. Rawr has it defined as such and I can't make a model without conforming to it. I'd either need some better calculations or some people with the knowledge to help argue it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:00 pm

I'll think about it; the main reason I asked is that I was having a guild-forum debate about the trustworthiness of Rawr and I pointed out that it has always seemed to me to overvalue armor; I was wondering if I could find out why this is so.

What I think I don't really understand is, why do you need to use these pre-defined quantities to rank gear if they have this unfortunate result? Is there some barrier to just combining an EH rating and an avoidance rating? (Block complicates things, of course, but I mean in principle you're locked into this terminology and this way of calculating?)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:14 pm

The way that situation works is complex.

Rawr was based off of Astrylian's bear model, which uses "Survival Points" which is EH purely, "Mitigation Points" which is a scaled version of the damage taken %, and "Threat Points" which is a scaled version of tps.

Currently Rawr.ProtPaladin is *incredibly* accurate about the actual underlying calculations. Threat and resists and partial resists and all of that jazz is now at the best it's ever been. Incoming damage is getting better as we speak. Optimizing (given the correct input values) gives greatly ideal sets with agreed upon conjectures...

but..

No matter what I do underneath, we still have to conform under the standards that Rawr places in order to keep in good standing as a developer on the project. I have caught plenty of hell trying to fight for base changes like that, and it comes down following the rules.

I agree entirely with the idea of "Survival" "Mitigation" and "Threat" Ratings. because you are not optimizing for plain ol stats, you're going through a complex process of balancing both EH and Damage Reduction, which play off each other in an odd way. I can't just have the ratings be "EH" "Avoidance" "TPS" because you can't really look at it without an effective scalar (how much EH is equal to avoidance?)

Now, luckily, ProtPaladin and ProtWarr both have alternate ranking options. We do have our Mitigation Scale set as default to comply, but we also have Tankpoints and Burst Time ranking opttions for those who would like to do it that way.

If you'd like to discuss this further, and possibly look into helping make Rawr a better program, feel free to PM me, or open a Discussion thread on the Rawr website (http://rawr.codeplex.com)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Malthrax » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:12 am

What do the "default" values for Threat Scaling and Mitigation Scaling imply?
For the Mitigation scale, does "1.0" imply 1 Mitigation point = 1 effective health point?
What does changing the Threat scale do (besides make large numbers larger). Should I just leave the sliders alone?

I'm trying to take 3 backpacks full of iLvl200 &213 gear and put together a gear set thats going to give me half a chance to live through main tanking the first half of Ulduar-10 this coming week. Do I need to change the Base Attack and Target Armor values for these bosses?


Sorry for the nub questions. Really like the tool, just not sure I know how to use it just yet.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:16 pm

Now, luckily, ProtPaladin and ProtWarr both have alternate ranking options. We do have our Mitigation Scale set as default to comply, but we also have Tankpoints and Burst Time ranking opttions for those who would like to do it that way.


The problem with mitigation scale is that while you can use it to decrease the value of effective health, this just makes armor look even better compared with stamina than it otherwise would, since only stamina factors into "survival" while armor is counted in both "mitigation" and "survival," right?

I'm interested in these other Tankpoints and Burst Time ranking options, but I did not see a way to use these categories in 2.2.0.9. Am I just missing them? Can you point me in the right direction? More importantly, can you explain to me in more detail what these measure?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:01 pm

It's under the Options tab -> Ranking tab.

I'm also interested in seeing some more transparency with the rankings. Having extremely accurate calculations is great, but the confusing ranking system undermines all that good work.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:47 pm

I think I've said it somewhere before, the rankings are actually cool but sadly not what the majority of the community has agreed on using.
There have been some tough fights and misunderstandings all along in the history of the Maintankadin forum about the definition of terms and what stats affect them.

The Ranking Points we use are:

Overall Points = Mitigation Points + Survival Points + Threat Points

Those subpoints can have different weighting, which happens when you select a Ranking Model.

Rawr.Protpaladin supports these Ranking Models:

    1. Mitigation Scale (Mitigation Scale*Customizable scale which allows you to weight mitigation vs. effective health.)

    • Mitigation Points = (17000 * MitigationScale) / Mitigation

      Mitigation* = (1 - %damageTaken)

      Main trouble here, lies in how people define the term "mitigation".
      For this Ranking Model it's a measure of how much of the incoming damage the tank takes, on average.
      An avoided attack is less damage taken, being crit is more damage taken. Blocking attacks partially is less damage taken.
      If you don't agree mith this definition of what mitigation is, then don't use this ranking model.

      So at the default MitigationScale (= 1.0 * 17000):
      One Mitigation Point is roughly on scale with Survival Point in this ranking mode.
      This means you're supposed to be able to compare the average mitigation of an avoidance tinket to the effective health of a stamina trinket etc. Armor is double dipping in that it both mitigates damage and increases your EH.
      Yeah Armor is really that good.

      So by changing the MitigationScale you decide how important it is for you
      to not take damage in relation to the Health you have, when you look at Overall Points.
      Increasing the scale to 2.0 means you favor mitigation twice as much.



    • Survival Points = EffectiveHealth

      EffectiveHealth = (Health / guaranteedReduction)

      Things that are guaranteedReduction = armor, defensive stance, BoSanc, Righteous fury...stuff like that
      No avoidance, no block, nothing random.
      Effective Health is a constant. There is no soft cap implemented yet, which would prevent EH from continiously gaining in value.

    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale

      ThreatPerSecond depends on the rotation you use.
      At this time we only support the basic 9696 with either SoV or SoR active.


    2. Tankpoints (The average amount of unmitigated damage which can be taken before dying)

    • MitigationPoints = TankPoints - EffectiveHealth

      TankPoints = Health / (1 - Mitigation)
      Mitigation = (1- %damageTaken)

    • Survival Points = EffectiveHealth
    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale * 3

    3. Burst Time (average amount of time between events which have a chance to result in a burst death)

    • MitigationPoints = 0
    • Survival Points = TTL * 100

      TTL = ((1 / a) * ((1 /(1 - a)^(h / H)) - 1) * s) as time to live in seconds,
      a = DefendTable.AnyMiss, h = Health, H = AverageDamagePerHit, s = Parry hastened BossAttackSpeed / BossAttackSpeed
      EDIT:
      I find the fomula for Burst to be strange, since it doesn't change with BossAttackSpeed.
      To my shame, I ninjaed it from the warrior model, so I now have to create a better one.

    • Threat Points = (ThreatPerSecond / (BossAttackValue / 25000)^4 ) * ThreatScale * 2

    The weird formula for threat points in this model just scales it down to something that isn't abysmally large compared to time to live. That way an Overall Points value still makes sense.


    4. Damage Output (The average amount of DPS which can be produced)

    • MitigationPoints = 0
    • Survival Points = 0
    • Threat Points = TotalDamagePerSecond
    TotalDamagePerSecond is the amount of damage your 9696 rotation deals.


    5. ProtWarr Mode (A similar model to Mitigation scale, but here mitigation points are a measure of average damage mitigated)

    • MitigationPoints = Mitigation * BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100.
      Scale is different here, for 1.0 (default) scale = 1.0 / 8
    • Survival Points = Effective Health.
    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale
    Note that trying to optimize for Mitigation Points alone in this model is not a good way to rate gear. Also the value of EH never changes in value, while you mitigate more for harder hitting mobs.

    6. Damage Taken Mode (The average amount Damage Taken post mitigation, of total incoming damage pre mitigation)

    • MitigationPoints = DamageTaken * BossAttackValue * scale
      Default scale is 1.0 which means scale = 10 ^1.0 the trackbar can not be changed for now.
    • Survival Points = Effective Health
    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale
    10 Mitigation Points are identical to 1 point of damage taken.
    Be aware that trying to maximize Mitigation Points in this model means, you're trying to mitigate as much as possible on average, of incoming damage. Set BossAttackValue to represent your boss and watch what your single items are worth in terms of damage taken

Some people believe Block value is Effective Health in some cases.
I am willing to implement an option to choose wether or not you want to rate block value that way.
Be aware of the fact that block value is only EH if you can guarantee a block.
Block Value already increases your average mitigation though, so this will cause BV to double dip.
Also, I find a block to be unreliable (stuns, attacks from behind, special attacks etc) so the user really needs to know what the hell he is doing if he wants to calculate EH from Blocks. It practically defeats the purpose of EH which is to be a constant used for all types of physical attacks.

Special Remarks:

(*) Mitigation* = (1 - %damageTaken)

%damageTaken = (AverageDamagePerAttack / BossAttackSpeed*) / (BossAttackValue /BossAttackSpeed)

(BossAttackSpeed* is a different value than BossAttackSpeed, if the Parry Haste Model is enabled)

By the way, this is how Rawr.ProtPaladin generally calculates the physical damage you take:

AverageDamagePerAttack = DamagePerHit * DefendTable.Hit + DamagePerCrit * DefendTable.Critical + DamagePerBlock * DefendTable.Block

So you can see, DamagePerBlock is usually smaller than DamagePerHit, but only when you block.

DefendTable values are the roll chances for an attacker. They depend on your Defensive Stats.

It's really important to acknowledge the difference between the terms Avoidance, Mitigation, Damage Reduction and how they interact.

Oh and yes, about Boss Attack Value.
I personally set the value to 80k when I plan a set for Ulduar 25man Bosses.
For trash mobs, which generally are level 80-82, I set it to ~30k.

solieu wrote:...set as default to comply...


Halp Halp, we are being whipped by bearz ! *giggle*

EDIT: Updates for 2.2.2
Last edited by Neganur on Sun May 03, 2009 10:10 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:22 pm

Speaking of average mitigation...

I find it mildly annoying that so many things and abilities we have, like Libram of Obstruction, are not active all the time.
It all needs to be averaged at some point.

If you really don't want those average values, I guess you don't like avoidance (which is alright if you don't).
EH tanks will probably choose to set the mitigation scale to zero.

Avoidance however makes your EH worth more when you don't get hit one out of 100 attacks.
Which is what average damage taken is all about.

The default for mitigation scale is 1.0 - and ranks Mitigation Points equal to Survival Points.
Think of the mitigation scale as 1.0 = Survival Points (EH) /Mitigation Points( %damage not taken * BossAttackValue)

So, increasing the Mitigation Scale to say 2.0, makes Overall Points rate gear that makes you take less damage twice as good as gear that increases your ability to take damage.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:52 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply, Neganur.

Why do Mitigation Points include the BossAttackValue? My assumption was that the BossAttackValue was just there to give block value a weighting relative to other forms of mitigation.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:12 pm

It provides another form of scale.

If you are taking 3000 base hits, you could care less about Mitigation Points.

It is also a way of scaling based on the tier of boss or gear. Had we kept to the basic "7000 x damage reduction" that the other tank models use, the value of mitigation would cease to be useful in higher tiers of gear (with more armor and stamina), even though a missed BIG hit is worth more than a tiny reduction of said big hit.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:31 pm

Slept wrote:Why do Mitigation Points include the BossAttackValue? My assumption was that the BossAttackValue was just there to give block value a weighting relative to other forms of mitigation.


basically, mitigation itself is only a % value (propotion),
from 0.00%...100% as measure of how much damage you didn't take on average.
A % of how much damage you didn't take - of what ? Of BossAttackValue ! :D

It most certainly makes sense now, as Mitigation Points becomes a bigger number, the harder a boss hits.

So 0.01 Mitigation Point is actually 1 point of damage you didn't take on average(of the attack the boss launches at you),
and makes much more sense as a number to maximize than a percentage value.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:43 pm

I see what you're trying to achieve, but I disagree with the implementation. Surely boss DPS would be a better measure? With my gear and a base attack of 80,000, I can move the swing speed slider from 1.0s to 5.0s with almost no variation in the ranking of the trinkets. Trinket rankings fluctate wildly with changes to the base attack, but are largely immune to a massive variation in swing speed.

I'll give an example:

80,000 base attack, 2.0s swing speed, 40,000 DPS
Heart of Iron (162 sta) : 6473 survival points
The General's Heart (107 dodge rating) : 5286 mitigation points

40,000 base attack, 1.0s swing speed, 40,000 DPS
Heart of Iron (162 sta) : 6473 survival points
The General's Heart (107 dodge rating) : 2489 mitigation points

So, The General's Heart's ranking is less than half against a 40,000 base attack even though the boss's DPS is the same. Brutallus showed us that avoidance becomes more reliable when bosses swing very fast, so The General's Heart should more effective when halving the swing speed, not less.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:58 pm

The Base code of how special effects from (not only) trinkets are calculated, has changed.

You need to edit the trinket (right click -> edit) then scroll to the section that says 'Base Stats'
In the row for 'Dodge Rating' enter the value you want to use.

On use Dodge Rating = 432.
Average Dodge Rating : 432 * 20s/120s = 72 Dodge Rating for an average uptime of the buff over the duration of its cooldown.

We are changing the trinket effects to let you choose if you want an average effet or a panic-situation soon.
Your issue has nothing to do with how Rawr.ProtPaladin values the avoidance from the trinket
and I assure you, that Mitigation Points are DPS based.
If you enable the 'Use Parry Haste' option, that incoming DPS will even depend on your Expertise.

Your Rawr doesn't know that you trinket has dodge Rating yet, partly due to it being a new item (the item cache needs to be updated) and partly due to me slacking and trying to implement Spell Attacks and guaranteed reduction from spell resistance. :roll:

EDIT: Wait a sec, wrong item, I thought you meant The Heart of Iron
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:27 pm

That's a nice change for trinkets.

Mitigation points are clearly not significantly based on boss DPS, as shown by my example above (the numbers were taken from ProtPaladin 2.2.0.9) and by your own formula. In case it wasn't clear, the on-use for Heart of Iron and the equip-shield for The General's Heart are not included in the example and have no bearing on the result. My point isn't even about trinkets; I just chose trinkets because it's easiest to see with items that only have a single avoidance or EH stat.

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but I feel it's a bit of a show-stopper issue. Avoidance does not become less valuable on bosses that swing faster and for less per hit. If there was a Brutallus-style boss (1.0s swing speed, dual wield, massive DPS) in Ulduar, tanks would stack avoidance for that boss.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:53 pm

Slept wrote:... so The General's Heart should more effective when halving the swing speed, not less.


Sorry, I don't understand your point.

The General's Heart Mitigation Points are lower because the amount of damage you don't take by using it is smaller.

Also, you did actually lower your incoming DPS after mitigation, although BossAttackValue / BossAttackSpeed is the same.
Your Block Value got more effective because the boss Hits faster.

Why would dodge rating be more valuable for a boss that hits faster ?
The whole point of you stacking avoidance was not Brutallus hitting fast and hard,
it was the Sunwell Radiance that made you have an avoidance of a freshly dinged lvl 70 Karazhan tank.
You stacked stamina to survive the stomp and then avoidance to not get hit by both attacks during stomp.

Avoidance != Mitigation
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Slept wrote: If there was a Brutallus-style boss (1.0s swing speed, dual wield, massive DPS) in Ulduar, tanks would stack avoidance for that boss.


No, because there is no Sunwell Radiance.
I would stack Armor, Block Value and Avoidance if I met Brutallus in Ulduar
To get hit less often and for less when hit.

Also Avoidance = chance to get hit less often, is not identical to Mitigation = damage you didn't take on average.

Slept wrote:Avoidance does not become less valuable on bosses that swing faster and for less per hit.

The value of your avoidance stays the same, the damage you avoid just becomes less when a boss hits for less.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:41 pm

Let's back up a bit. The current formula for mitigation points is:

Mitigation Points = Mitigation * BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100


What this is saying is: If the boss starts hitting me twice as hard, any mitigation or avoidance items I have are worth twice as much. However, if the boss starts hitting me twice as fast, my avoidance or mitigation items do not change their worth. (For the sake of simplicity, ignore minor effects from block, parry hasting, etc.)

In either case, the boss's DPS doubled, so the healers are going to have to heal me twice as much. Since mitigation and avoidance both reduce the amount of incoming damage, I would expect the worth of those stats to not change much because I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage. The ratio of damage mitigated+avoided to damage taken has not changed.

Survival Points = EffectiveHealth

EffectiveHealth = (Health / guaranteedReduction)

Effective Health is a constant.


Lets consider the survival points in the same situation. The boss starts hitting me twice as hard, and now I'm almost dying every time he hits me. I'm obviously short on EH now, but my Survival Points haven't changed because EH is a constant. Similarly, if the boss starts hitting me twice as fast, I still almost die if the boss hits me twice in a row without heals. My EH is still the same, and still too low.

Survival Points are not based on boss damage. If you're getting gibbed by a boss, you have to get more Survival Points in order to survive.

Similarly, if you're taking too much damage for healers to keep up with in a fight, you need more Mitigation Points. You do not get more Mitigation Points simply because the boss starts hitting you harder. That is why the other tanking modules use a constant multiplier for Mitigation Points.

If you're hell bent on including boss damage in the Mitigation Points, then you should base it off the boss's DPS because at least that is independant of his swing speed.

I want to thank you, Neganur and solieu, for the work you've done on ProtPaladin. It's a great tool. However, your Mitigation Points equation is incorrect and you should change it to be in line with the other tanking modules.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:32 am

Slept wrote:Since mitigation and avoidance both reduce the amount of incoming damage, I would expect the worth of those stats to not change much because I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage. The ratio of damage mitigated+avoided to damage taken has not changed.


Incorrect.

Code: Select all
%mitigation = 1 - %damageTaken, which basically means %mitigation + %damageTaken = 1

%damageTaken = damageTaken / BossAttackValue, now you double damageTaken:

2 * damageTaken / BossAttackValue = 0.5 * %damageTaken, thus

%mitigation = 1 - (0.5 * %damageTaken) which means

2 * %mitigation - 1 = 2 * (1 - 0.5 * %damageTaken) - 1 = 1 - %damageTaken


so you are not mitigating twice as much when you double the damage.

To put Numbers on it: BossAttackValue = 80000, BossAttackSpeed = 2.0, I have gear that results in damageTaken = 24000.
Code: Select all
%damageTaken = 24000 damage / 80000 damage = 0.3

%mitigation = 1 - 0.3 = 0.7


Now I'll double the damageTaken to 2 * 24000 = 48000:
Code: Select all
%damageTaken = 48000 damage / 80000 damage = 0.6

%mitigation = 1 - 0.6 = 0.4


And for the sake of argument, I can ignore AttackSpeed because:
Code: Select all
damage / AttackSpeed = dps

%damageTaken = damageTaken / BossAttackValue

= (damageTaken / BossAttackSpeed) / (BossAttackValue / BossAttackSpeed)

    (damageTaken * BossAttackSpeed)       damageTaken
= ----------------------------------- = ---------------
  (BossAttackSpeed * BossAttackValue)   BossAttackValue


It only changes by a factor of parry hastened BossAttackSpeed / BossAttackSpeed, when I enable the parry model.

Slept wrote:You do not get more Mitigation Points simply because the boss starts hitting you harder.


Yes you do. Mitigation Points in this model is the amount of damage you didn't take, and depends on what the boss can hit for.
What you think is: the %number of attacks you avoid doesn't change. Which is correct.

You do avoid more often when the boss hits faster. Which leads you to think that avoidance is worth more the faster a boss swings.

Slept wrote:However, your Mitigation Points equation is incorrect and you should change it to be in line with the other tanking modules.


The accuracy of how one model defines a ranking for a rating is irrelevant to how other models do it. That's why it is a different ranking model.

If you want to make avoidance stats more valuable the faster a boss hits, you need to use a TTL model.

EDIT:
The general purpose of a MitigationScale is, to offer preset values that suit different ranges of raiding tiers,
while trying to set the Scale so that EH is roughly equal to Mitigation Points.
A default value for the scale is given, which is 1.0 and no one demands that you change it.
You can change it, when you want that Overall Points favor one rating over the other.
BossAttackValue and Speed are usually constant, you set those values according to the Boss you fight.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:33 am

Code: Select all
2 * damageTaken / BossAttackValue = 0.5 * %damageTaken


You doubled the damage taken but ignored that the BossAttackValue has to double for you to take twice the damage. Also, I think you meant "2 * %damageTaken."

Code: Select all
2 * damageTaken /( 2 * BossAttackValue) = %damageTaken


And for the sake of argument, I can ignore AttackSpeed because:
Code: Select all
damage / AttackSpeed = dps

%damageTaken = damageTaken / BossAttackValue

= (damageTaken / BossAttackSpeed) / (BossAttackValue / BossAttackSpeed)

    (damageTaken * BossAttackSpeed)       damageTaken
= ----------------------------------- = ---------------
  (BossAttackSpeed * BossAttackValue)   BossAttackValue


I think you should ignore boss DPS for the Mitgation Points. However, if you're going to ignore boss DPS, you have to ignore BossAttackValue and BossAttackSpeed to maintain consistency. If a boss starts hitting twice as fast, I'm going to take twice as much damage. That's just common sense. So why is that not reflected in the Mitgation Points?

Yes you do. Mitigation Points in this model is the amount of damage you didn't take, and depends on what the boss can hit for.


Rawr is used to optimise gear, but according to ProtPaladin's Mitigation Points, the best way for me to improve my gear is to wait for the boss to enrage and hit me for 500 000 damage. It makes no sense.

Furthermore, why would EH remain a constant? If the boss hits me for 1 damage, a minute amount of EH is all that's required, but EH never changes now matter how hard the boss hits. Protpaladin has a rating system where EH is absolute, but mitigation is dependant on how hard the boss hits. That's inconsistent, and it shows when extreme BossAttackValues are used.

BossAttackValue = 500: ProtPaladin says "Stam is best." Uh, why do I need lots of stam when I'm being hit for 500 every 2 seconds?
BossAttackValue = 100 000: ProtPaladin says "Stack avoidance." Luckily, it won't let me set it any higher. If I could set BossAttackValue to 1 000 000, ProtPaladin would be telling me that avoidance is the best by far, even though a landed hit would one shot me.

The accuracy of how one model defines a ranking for a rating is irrelevant to how other models do it. That's why it is a different ranking model.


If all the models use the same rankings, people could compare between them. That would be very interesting and useful.

EDIT:
The general purpose of a MitigationScale is, to offer preset values that suit different ranges of raiding tiers,
while trying to set the Scale so that EH is roughly equal to Mitigation Points.
A default value for the scale is given, which is 1.0 and no one demands that you change it.
You can change it, when you want that Overall Points favor one rating over the other.
BossAttackValue and Speed are usually constant, you set those values according to the Boss you fight.


How are people supposed to reasonably decide which items are best when the BossAttackValue slider and the Mitigation Scale slider do practically the same thing? It's hopelessly confusing for someone who doesn't know the underlying formulas for the Mitigation and Survival Points.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:52 am

Slept wrote:You doubled the damage taken but ignored that the BossAttackValue has to double for you to take twice the damage. Also, I think you meant "2 * %damageTaken."


NO. You are messing things up. YOU doubled the damage the boss deals from 40k hits pre armor to 80k hits pre armor, you DON'T double the % of damage taken. Damge Taken is AFTER Damage Reduction, BossAttackValue BEFORE.

Slept wrote:I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage

is what you claimed. This is simply false.

This is your starting point:
%damageTaken = 24000 damageTaken / 80000 BossAttackValue = 0.3
%damage mitigated = 1 - %damageTaken = 1 - 0.3 = 0.7 => damageMitigated = 80000 * 0.7 = 56000 damageMitigated

24000 damageTaken + 56000 damageMitigated = 80000 BossAttackValue.

You now double your %damageTaken:

2 * 0.3 %damageTaken = 0.6 %damageTaken. damageTaken = 80000 * 0.6 = 48000

you changed damage taken, which changes your damageMitigated

%mitigation = 1 - %damageTaken = 1 - 0.6 = 0.4 => damageMitigated = 80000 * 0.4 = 32000

48000 damageTaken + 32000 damageMitigated = 80000 BossAttackValue.

"I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage"

24000 damageTaken * 2 = 48000 correct ?

56000 damageMitigated / 32000 damageMitigated = 1.75 correct ? is that mitigating twice as much damage ? is it ?

The BossAttackValue did not change. Why should it.
You do realize that you can take more damage because your gear gets worse no ?

The Boss doesn't have to hit you harder for you to take more damage. Go naked, go figure.

Your %damageTaken can increase by changing the following things:

%damageTaken = AverageDamagePerAttack / BossAttackValue, we agreed on the BossAttackValue not to change.

AverageDamagePerAttack = DamagePerHit * %Hit + DamagePerCrit * %Critical + DamagePerBlock * %Block

Obviously, either your avoidance, your block chance, your chance to be crit, your Block Value or DamageReduction (Armor, RF, BoSanc)
has changed.

%DamageReduction = (Armor / ([467.5 * Enemy_Level] + Armor - 22167.5)) * 100

DamageReduction is not Mitigation !
DamageReduction is the amount you reduce damage by
Mitigation is a measure of how much of the incoming damage the tank takes, on average.



This is how these terms are defined:

Damage Absorbtion = represents the amount of physical damage a player can withstand.
For instance, a character with 5000 health and 50% armor would be able to absorb 10000 damage before dying.

DA = (player health) / (1 - (% damage reduction given by armor in decimal form).

For example, a character with 1000 health and 31.24% damage reduction would be able to absorb 1000 / (1 - .3124) = 1454 (rounded) damage.

Damage Reduction% = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * (AttackerLevel + 4.5 * (AttackerLevel - 59)))


Slept wrote:I think you should ignore boss DPS for the Mitgation Points.

I'm NOT ignoring it, when you look at dps values, DPS is Damge PER 1 Second.

(A / C) / (B / C) = (A / C) * (C / B) = (A * C) / (B * C) = (A / B). Looks familiar ?

(Damage1/AttackSpeed) / (Damage2/AttackSpeed) = (Damage1 / Damage2)

(1 damage / second ) / (2 damage / second) = (1/2) = 0.5 it's a proportion. No units.

Slept wrote:However, if you're going to ignore boss DPS, you have to ignore BossAttackValue and BossAttackSpeed to maintain consistency. If a boss starts hitting twice as fast, I'm going to take twice as much damage. That's just common sense. So why is that not reflected in the Mitgation Points?

Consistency ? What good is a proportion if you don't set it in relation to its origin ?
A mitigation of 0.5 doesn't tell you anything. The boss could be hitting for 10 damage and you'd never even know that your Mitigation kinda is irrelevant because you have like 45k HP raid buffed.
The other way around: The boss could be hitting for a million damage and you wouldn't know that your mitigated damage exceeds your Health because you only look at a number that says "0.5".
If your Mitigation Points are much much greater than your EH, your toe nails should be flipping upside down.
AttackSpeed? Your not gonna avoid any more or less on average, just because the boss hits 60 per minute instead of once.
Oh right, your incoming dps may change. Tell them to put one more healer on you.

Slept wrote:Rawr is used to optimise gear, but according to ProtPaladin's Mitigation Points, the best way for me to improve my gear is to wait for the boss to enrage and hit me for 500 000 damage. It makes no sense.

You're being a jerk. Why do you think Overall Points is a sum of EH + Mitigation Points.
Also, on boss enrages, why do people pop shieldwalls and avoidance tinkets on Patchwerk / Maexxna ?
If you don't have enough EH, you're in the wrong instance. A boss enrage of 500k is hardly a gearing issue.

Slept wrote:Furthermore, why would EH remain a constant? If the boss hits me for 1 damage, a minute amount of EH is all that's required, but EH never changes now matter how hard the boss hits. Protpaladin has a rating system where EH is absolute, but mitigation is dependant on how hard the boss hits. That's inconsistent, and it shows when extreme BossAttackValues are used.

So you're telling me your armor suddenly disintegrates and you're unable to dodge/block/parry etc just because the boss hits harder or faster ?
What's the point of this, if the boss hits you a trillion time in one second or once every time the Milkyway rotates around the center of the universe. Your EH will NOT CHANGE NO MATTER WHAT because your gear doesn't change during combat. (kay now tell me that you forgot to repair, will you). You don't look at one ranking alone. You look at the Overall Value.

Slept wrote:BossAttackValue = 500: ProtPaladin says "Stam is best." Uh, why do I need lots of stam when I'm being hit for 500 every 2 seconds?
BossAttackValue = 100 000: ProtPaladin says "Stack avoidance." Luckily, it won't let me set it any higher. If I could set BossAttackValue to 1 000 000, ProtPaladin would be telling me that avoidance is the best by far, even though a landed hit would one shot me.

Is overgearing content a bad thing ?
Ever thought of why those rogues that tanked Shahraz had 100% avoidance ?

Slept wrote:If all the models use the same rankings, people could compare between them. That would be very interesting and useful.

Although I agree that it's interesting to see what the gearing philosophy of Tankpoints is compared to TTL, sometimes apples are apples, and oranges are oranges. It's the result (gear setup) it spits out, that is interesting. Not the individual ranking points.

Slept wrote:How are people supposed to reasonably decide which items are best when the BossAttackValue slider and the Mitigation Scale slider do practically the same thing? It's hopelessly confusing for someone who doesn't know the underlying formulas for the Mitigation and Survival Points.

You set the BossAttackValue, you equip gear to get "enough" EH for this boss.
You want your gear to be balanced around Mitigation Points being roughly equal to EH.
Usually you can leave the Scale where it is, but when you enter content that is harder or easier than what you come from, you can tweak the scale to gear differently. That's what the scale is about.

Remember that EH = Mitigation Points means,
that your EH is enough to survive the amount of the incoming Damage damage you actually take, on average.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:18 pm

NO. You are messing things up. YOU doubled the damage the boss deals from 40k hits pre armor to 80k hits pre armor, you DON'T double the % of damage taken. Damge Taken is AFTER Damage Reduction, BossAttackValue BEFORE.


I'm not messing anything up. You're mangling my example to suit your purposes. Simple intuition is enough to know that when a boss hits twice as hard %mitigation does not change. If you double the BossAttackValue in ProtPaladin, the Total Mitigation in the Defensive Stats section barely changes and the Survival Points don't change. The Mitgation Points double. ProtPaladin is currently telling the user that Survival Points are not based on BossAttackValue even though a harder hitting boss obviously will require more EH.

The Boss doesn't have to hit you harder for you to take more damage. Go naked, go figure.


Obviously. Mitigation Points works just fine if BossAttackValue never changes, but, as I've shown with numerous examples, it becomes inconsistent when you do change it.

Slept wrote:I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage


is what you claimed. This is simply false.


The Boss doesn't have to hit you harder for you to take more damage. Go naked, go figure.


Again, you're ignoring that the BossAttackValue doubled in my example. If you take more damage and the BossAttackValue doesn't change obviously your mitigation is worse. If the BossAttackValue doubles, your %mitigation stays the same.

we agreed on the BossAttackValue not to change


I never agreed to that anywhere. Why have a slider to set BossAttackValue if it doesn't change?

Consistency ? What good is a proportion if you don't set it in relation to its origin ?
A mitigation of 0.5 doesn't tell you anything. The boss could be hitting for 10 damage and you'd never even know that your Mitigation kinda is irrelevant because you have like 45k HP raid buffed.


EH is irrelevant too! So why does ProtPaladin tell people that Mitigation Points are useless against trivial content, but leave EH at the same value. It's confusing for the user.

The other way around: The boss could be hitting for a million damage and you wouldn't know that your mitigated damage exceeds your Health because you only look at a number that says "0.5".
If your Mitigation Points are much much greater than your EH, your toe nails should be flipping upside down.
AttackSpeed? Your not gonna avoid any more or less on average, just because the boss hits 60 per minute instead of once.
Oh right, your incoming dps may change. Tell them to put one more healer on you.


You're trying to do too much with these ratings and it's making them hard to use. I'm never going to use ProtPaladin to tell me if I have enough effective health. I'm going to tank the boss and if he gibs me, I'll put more EH on. If I'm taking too much damage, then I'll ask for another healer or get more avoidance/mitigation.

You're being a jerk. Why do you think Overall Points is a sum of EH + Mitigation Points.
Also, on boss enrages, why do people pop shieldwalls and avoidance tinkets on Patchwerk / Maexxna ?
If you don't have enough EH, you're in the wrong instance. A boss enrage of 500k is hardly a gearing issue.


Don't insult me. I've taken a lot of my time to show you why your rating system is confusing to users. If you choose to ignore my comments then that's your perogative, but it won't make your product better.

So you're telling me your armor suddenly disintegrates and you're unable to dodge/block/parry etc just because the boss hits harder or faster ?
What's the point of this, if the boss hits you a trillion time in one second or once every time the Milkyway rotates around the center of the universe. Your EH will NOT CHANGE NO MATTER WHAT because your gear doesn't change during combat. (kay now tell me that you forgot to repair, will you). You don't look at one ranking alone. You look at the Overall Value.


My point is that your armor doesn't change at all, in any way. So why do the Mitigation Points change?

Why would I look at the overall ranking? The one I can mess with completely just by moving the Mitigation Scale (or BossAttackValue)slider? Arbitrary ranking is arbitrary.

You set the BossAttackValue, you equip gear to get "enough" EH for this boss.
You want your gear to be balanced around Mitigation Points being roughly equal to EH.
Usually you can leave the Scale where it is, but when you enter content that is harder or easier than what you come from, you can tweak the scale to gear differently. That's what the scale is about.


It doesn't even work like that. I'm almost all BiS slot gear from the last tier of content. For me to get me Survival Points and Mitigation Points equal with the Mitigation Scale slider set to 1.0, I have to reduce the BossAttackValue to 11 000. I think there must be a bug in there somewhere.

I really don't have anything more to add at this point. You can either use the feedback that the ranks are too confusing, or you can ignore it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:25 pm

Keep the personal insults out of it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:36 pm

Slept, can you try repeating the point you're trying to make without any quoting and rebuttals cutting it up?

I'd like to see something concise with a good example of an alternative.
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