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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Malthrax » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:12 am

What do the "default" values for Threat Scaling and Mitigation Scaling imply?
For the Mitigation scale, does "1.0" imply 1 Mitigation point = 1 effective health point?
What does changing the Threat scale do (besides make large numbers larger). Should I just leave the sliders alone?

I'm trying to take 3 backpacks full of iLvl200 &213 gear and put together a gear set thats going to give me half a chance to live through main tanking the first half of Ulduar-10 this coming week. Do I need to change the Base Attack and Target Armor values for these bosses?


Sorry for the nub questions. Really like the tool, just not sure I know how to use it just yet.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:16 pm

Now, luckily, ProtPaladin and ProtWarr both have alternate ranking options. We do have our Mitigation Scale set as default to comply, but we also have Tankpoints and Burst Time ranking opttions for those who would like to do it that way.


The problem with mitigation scale is that while you can use it to decrease the value of effective health, this just makes armor look even better compared with stamina than it otherwise would, since only stamina factors into "survival" while armor is counted in both "mitigation" and "survival," right?

I'm interested in these other Tankpoints and Burst Time ranking options, but I did not see a way to use these categories in 2.2.0.9. Am I just missing them? Can you point me in the right direction? More importantly, can you explain to me in more detail what these measure?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:01 pm

It's under the Options tab -> Ranking tab.

I'm also interested in seeing some more transparency with the rankings. Having extremely accurate calculations is great, but the confusing ranking system undermines all that good work.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:47 pm

I think I've said it somewhere before, the rankings are actually cool but sadly not what the majority of the community has agreed on using.
There have been some tough fights and misunderstandings all along in the history of the Maintankadin forum about the definition of terms and what stats affect them.

The Ranking Points we use are:

Overall Points = Mitigation Points + Survival Points + Threat Points

Those subpoints can have different weighting, which happens when you select a Ranking Model.

Rawr.Protpaladin supports these Ranking Models:

    1. Mitigation Scale (Mitigation Scale*Customizable scale which allows you to weight mitigation vs. effective health.)

    • Mitigation Points = (17000 * MitigationScale) / Mitigation

      Mitigation* = (1 - %damageTaken)

      Main trouble here, lies in how people define the term "mitigation".
      For this Ranking Model it's a measure of how much of the incoming damage the tank takes, on average.
      An avoided attack is less damage taken, being crit is more damage taken. Blocking attacks partially is less damage taken.
      If you don't agree mith this definition of what mitigation is, then don't use this ranking model.

      So at the default MitigationScale (= 1.0 * 17000):
      One Mitigation Point is roughly on scale with Survival Point in this ranking mode.
      This means you're supposed to be able to compare the average mitigation of an avoidance tinket to the effective health of a stamina trinket etc. Armor is double dipping in that it both mitigates damage and increases your EH.
      Yeah Armor is really that good.

      So by changing the MitigationScale you decide how important it is for you
      to not take damage in relation to the Health you have, when you look at Overall Points.
      Increasing the scale to 2.0 means you favor mitigation twice as much.



    • Survival Points = EffectiveHealth

      EffectiveHealth = (Health / guaranteedReduction)

      Things that are guaranteedReduction = armor, defensive stance, BoSanc, Righteous fury...stuff like that
      No avoidance, no block, nothing random.
      Effective Health is a constant. There is no soft cap implemented yet, which would prevent EH from continiously gaining in value.

    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale

      ThreatPerSecond depends on the rotation you use.
      At this time we only support the basic 9696 with either SoV or SoR active.


    2. Tankpoints (The average amount of unmitigated damage which can be taken before dying)

    • MitigationPoints = TankPoints - EffectiveHealth

      TankPoints = Health / (1 - Mitigation)
      Mitigation = (1- %damageTaken)

    • Survival Points = EffectiveHealth
    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale * 3

    3. Burst Time (average amount of time between events which have a chance to result in a burst death)

    • MitigationPoints = 0
    • Survival Points = TTL * 100

      TTL = ((1 / a) * ((1 /(1 - a)^(h / H)) - 1) * s) as time to live in seconds,
      a = DefendTable.AnyMiss, h = Health, H = AverageDamagePerHit, s = Parry hastened BossAttackSpeed / BossAttackSpeed
      EDIT:
      I find the fomula for Burst to be strange, since it doesn't change with BossAttackSpeed.
      To my shame, I ninjaed it from the warrior model, so I now have to create a better one.

    • Threat Points = (ThreatPerSecond / (BossAttackValue / 25000)^4 ) * ThreatScale * 2

    The weird formula for threat points in this model just scales it down to something that isn't abysmally large compared to time to live. That way an Overall Points value still makes sense.


    4. Damage Output (The average amount of DPS which can be produced)

    • MitigationPoints = 0
    • Survival Points = 0
    • Threat Points = TotalDamagePerSecond
    TotalDamagePerSecond is the amount of damage your 9696 rotation deals.


    5. ProtWarr Mode (A similar model to Mitigation scale, but here mitigation points are a measure of average damage mitigated)

    • MitigationPoints = Mitigation * BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100.
      Scale is different here, for 1.0 (default) scale = 1.0 / 8
    • Survival Points = Effective Health.
    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale
    Note that trying to optimize for Mitigation Points alone in this model is not a good way to rate gear. Also the value of EH never changes in value, while you mitigate more for harder hitting mobs.

    6. Damage Taken Mode (The average amount Damage Taken post mitigation, of total incoming damage pre mitigation)

    • MitigationPoints = DamageTaken * BossAttackValue * scale
      Default scale is 1.0 which means scale = 10 ^1.0 the trackbar can not be changed for now.
    • Survival Points = Effective Health
    • Threat Points = ThreatPerSecond * ThreatScale
    10 Mitigation Points are identical to 1 point of damage taken.
    Be aware that trying to maximize Mitigation Points in this model means, you're trying to mitigate as much as possible on average, of incoming damage. Set BossAttackValue to represent your boss and watch what your single items are worth in terms of damage taken

Some people believe Block value is Effective Health in some cases.
I am willing to implement an option to choose wether or not you want to rate block value that way.
Be aware of the fact that block value is only EH if you can guarantee a block.
Block Value already increases your average mitigation though, so this will cause BV to double dip.
Also, I find a block to be unreliable (stuns, attacks from behind, special attacks etc) so the user really needs to know what the hell he is doing if he wants to calculate EH from Blocks. It practically defeats the purpose of EH which is to be a constant used for all types of physical attacks.

Special Remarks:

(*) Mitigation* = (1 - %damageTaken)

%damageTaken = (AverageDamagePerAttack / BossAttackSpeed*) / (BossAttackValue /BossAttackSpeed)

(BossAttackSpeed* is a different value than BossAttackSpeed, if the Parry Haste Model is enabled)

By the way, this is how Rawr.ProtPaladin generally calculates the physical damage you take:

AverageDamagePerAttack = DamagePerHit * DefendTable.Hit + DamagePerCrit * DefendTable.Critical + DamagePerBlock * DefendTable.Block

So you can see, DamagePerBlock is usually smaller than DamagePerHit, but only when you block.

DefendTable values are the roll chances for an attacker. They depend on your Defensive Stats.

It's really important to acknowledge the difference between the terms Avoidance, Mitigation, Damage Reduction and how they interact.

Oh and yes, about Boss Attack Value.
I personally set the value to 80k when I plan a set for Ulduar 25man Bosses.
For trash mobs, which generally are level 80-82, I set it to ~30k.

solieu wrote:...set as default to comply...


Halp Halp, we are being whipped by bearz ! *giggle*

EDIT: Updates for 2.2.2
Last edited by Neganur on Sun May 03, 2009 10:10 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:22 pm

Speaking of average mitigation...

I find it mildly annoying that so many things and abilities we have, like Libram of Obstruction, are not active all the time.
It all needs to be averaged at some point.

If you really don't want those average values, I guess you don't like avoidance (which is alright if you don't).
EH tanks will probably choose to set the mitigation scale to zero.

Avoidance however makes your EH worth more when you don't get hit one out of 100 attacks.
Which is what average damage taken is all about.

The default for mitigation scale is 1.0 - and ranks Mitigation Points equal to Survival Points.
Think of the mitigation scale as 1.0 = Survival Points (EH) /Mitigation Points( %damage not taken * BossAttackValue)

So, increasing the Mitigation Scale to say 2.0, makes Overall Points rate gear that makes you take less damage twice as good as gear that increases your ability to take damage.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:52 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply, Neganur.

Why do Mitigation Points include the BossAttackValue? My assumption was that the BossAttackValue was just there to give block value a weighting relative to other forms of mitigation.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:12 pm

It provides another form of scale.

If you are taking 3000 base hits, you could care less about Mitigation Points.

It is also a way of scaling based on the tier of boss or gear. Had we kept to the basic "7000 x damage reduction" that the other tank models use, the value of mitigation would cease to be useful in higher tiers of gear (with more armor and stamina), even though a missed BIG hit is worth more than a tiny reduction of said big hit.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:31 pm

Slept wrote:Why do Mitigation Points include the BossAttackValue? My assumption was that the BossAttackValue was just there to give block value a weighting relative to other forms of mitigation.


basically, mitigation itself is only a % value (propotion),
from 0.00%...100% as measure of how much damage you didn't take on average.
A % of how much damage you didn't take - of what ? Of BossAttackValue ! :D

It most certainly makes sense now, as Mitigation Points becomes a bigger number, the harder a boss hits.

So 0.01 Mitigation Point is actually 1 point of damage you didn't take on average(of the attack the boss launches at you),
and makes much more sense as a number to maximize than a percentage value.
Last edited by Neganur on Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:43 pm

I see what you're trying to achieve, but I disagree with the implementation. Surely boss DPS would be a better measure? With my gear and a base attack of 80,000, I can move the swing speed slider from 1.0s to 5.0s with almost no variation in the ranking of the trinkets. Trinket rankings fluctate wildly with changes to the base attack, but are largely immune to a massive variation in swing speed.

I'll give an example:

80,000 base attack, 2.0s swing speed, 40,000 DPS
Heart of Iron (162 sta) : 6473 survival points
The General's Heart (107 dodge rating) : 5286 mitigation points

40,000 base attack, 1.0s swing speed, 40,000 DPS
Heart of Iron (162 sta) : 6473 survival points
The General's Heart (107 dodge rating) : 2489 mitigation points

So, The General's Heart's ranking is less than half against a 40,000 base attack even though the boss's DPS is the same. Brutallus showed us that avoidance becomes more reliable when bosses swing very fast, so The General's Heart should more effective when halving the swing speed, not less.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:58 pm

The Base code of how special effects from (not only) trinkets are calculated, has changed.

You need to edit the trinket (right click -> edit) then scroll to the section that says 'Base Stats'
In the row for 'Dodge Rating' enter the value you want to use.

On use Dodge Rating = 432.
Average Dodge Rating : 432 * 20s/120s = 72 Dodge Rating for an average uptime of the buff over the duration of its cooldown.

We are changing the trinket effects to let you choose if you want an average effet or a panic-situation soon.
Your issue has nothing to do with how Rawr.ProtPaladin values the avoidance from the trinket
and I assure you, that Mitigation Points are DPS based.
If you enable the 'Use Parry Haste' option, that incoming DPS will even depend on your Expertise.

Your Rawr doesn't know that you trinket has dodge Rating yet, partly due to it being a new item (the item cache needs to be updated) and partly due to me slacking and trying to implement Spell Attacks and guaranteed reduction from spell resistance. :roll:

EDIT: Wait a sec, wrong item, I thought you meant The Heart of Iron
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:27 pm

That's a nice change for trinkets.

Mitigation points are clearly not significantly based on boss DPS, as shown by my example above (the numbers were taken from ProtPaladin 2.2.0.9) and by your own formula. In case it wasn't clear, the on-use for Heart of Iron and the equip-shield for The General's Heart are not included in the example and have no bearing on the result. My point isn't even about trinkets; I just chose trinkets because it's easiest to see with items that only have a single avoidance or EH stat.

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but I feel it's a bit of a show-stopper issue. Avoidance does not become less valuable on bosses that swing faster and for less per hit. If there was a Brutallus-style boss (1.0s swing speed, dual wield, massive DPS) in Ulduar, tanks would stack avoidance for that boss.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:53 pm

Slept wrote:... so The General's Heart should more effective when halving the swing speed, not less.


Sorry, I don't understand your point.

The General's Heart Mitigation Points are lower because the amount of damage you don't take by using it is smaller.

Also, you did actually lower your incoming DPS after mitigation, although BossAttackValue / BossAttackSpeed is the same.
Your Block Value got more effective because the boss Hits faster.

Why would dodge rating be more valuable for a boss that hits faster ?
The whole point of you stacking avoidance was not Brutallus hitting fast and hard,
it was the Sunwell Radiance that made you have an avoidance of a freshly dinged lvl 70 Karazhan tank.
You stacked stamina to survive the stomp and then avoidance to not get hit by both attacks during stomp.

Avoidance != Mitigation
Last edited by Neganur on Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Slept wrote: If there was a Brutallus-style boss (1.0s swing speed, dual wield, massive DPS) in Ulduar, tanks would stack avoidance for that boss.


No, because there is no Sunwell Radiance.
I would stack Armor, Block Value and Avoidance if I met Brutallus in Ulduar
To get hit less often and for less when hit.

Also Avoidance = chance to get hit less often, is not identical to Mitigation = damage you didn't take on average.

Slept wrote:Avoidance does not become less valuable on bosses that swing faster and for less per hit.

The value of your avoidance stays the same, the damage you avoid just becomes less when a boss hits for less.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Slept » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:41 pm

Let's back up a bit. The current formula for mitigation points is:

Mitigation Points = Mitigation * BossAttackValue * MitigationScale * 100


What this is saying is: If the boss starts hitting me twice as hard, any mitigation or avoidance items I have are worth twice as much. However, if the boss starts hitting me twice as fast, my avoidance or mitigation items do not change their worth. (For the sake of simplicity, ignore minor effects from block, parry hasting, etc.)

In either case, the boss's DPS doubled, so the healers are going to have to heal me twice as much. Since mitigation and avoidance both reduce the amount of incoming damage, I would expect the worth of those stats to not change much because I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage. The ratio of damage mitigated+avoided to damage taken has not changed.

Survival Points = EffectiveHealth

EffectiveHealth = (Health / guaranteedReduction)

Effective Health is a constant.


Lets consider the survival points in the same situation. The boss starts hitting me twice as hard, and now I'm almost dying every time he hits me. I'm obviously short on EH now, but my Survival Points haven't changed because EH is a constant. Similarly, if the boss starts hitting me twice as fast, I still almost die if the boss hits me twice in a row without heals. My EH is still the same, and still too low.

Survival Points are not based on boss damage. If you're getting gibbed by a boss, you have to get more Survival Points in order to survive.

Similarly, if you're taking too much damage for healers to keep up with in a fight, you need more Mitigation Points. You do not get more Mitigation Points simply because the boss starts hitting you harder. That is why the other tanking modules use a constant multiplier for Mitigation Points.

If you're hell bent on including boss damage in the Mitigation Points, then you should base it off the boss's DPS because at least that is independant of his swing speed.

I want to thank you, Neganur and solieu, for the work you've done on ProtPaladin. It's a great tool. However, your Mitigation Points equation is incorrect and you should change it to be in line with the other tanking modules.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:32 am

Slept wrote:Since mitigation and avoidance both reduce the amount of incoming damage, I would expect the worth of those stats to not change much because I am taking twice as much damage and mitigating or avoiding twice as much damage. The ratio of damage mitigated+avoided to damage taken has not changed.


Incorrect.

Code: Select all
%mitigation = 1 - %damageTaken, which basically means %mitigation + %damageTaken = 1

%damageTaken = damageTaken / BossAttackValue, now you double damageTaken:

2 * damageTaken / BossAttackValue = 0.5 * %damageTaken, thus

%mitigation = 1 - (0.5 * %damageTaken) which means

2 * %mitigation - 1 = 2 * (1 - 0.5 * %damageTaken) - 1 = 1 - %damageTaken


so you are not mitigating twice as much when you double the damage.

To put Numbers on it: BossAttackValue = 80000, BossAttackSpeed = 2.0, I have gear that results in damageTaken = 24000.
Code: Select all
%damageTaken = 24000 damage / 80000 damage = 0.3

%mitigation = 1 - 0.3 = 0.7


Now I'll double the damageTaken to 2 * 24000 = 48000:
Code: Select all
%damageTaken = 48000 damage / 80000 damage = 0.6

%mitigation = 1 - 0.6 = 0.4


And for the sake of argument, I can ignore AttackSpeed because:
Code: Select all
damage / AttackSpeed = dps

%damageTaken = damageTaken / BossAttackValue

= (damageTaken / BossAttackSpeed) / (BossAttackValue / BossAttackSpeed)

    (damageTaken * BossAttackSpeed)       damageTaken
= ----------------------------------- = ---------------
  (BossAttackSpeed * BossAttackValue)   BossAttackValue


It only changes by a factor of parry hastened BossAttackSpeed / BossAttackSpeed, when I enable the parry model.

Slept wrote:You do not get more Mitigation Points simply because the boss starts hitting you harder.


Yes you do. Mitigation Points in this model is the amount of damage you didn't take, and depends on what the boss can hit for.
What you think is: the %number of attacks you avoid doesn't change. Which is correct.

You do avoid more often when the boss hits faster. Which leads you to think that avoidance is worth more the faster a boss swings.

Slept wrote:However, your Mitigation Points equation is incorrect and you should change it to be in line with the other tanking modules.


The accuracy of how one model defines a ranking for a rating is irrelevant to how other models do it. That's why it is a different ranking model.

If you want to make avoidance stats more valuable the faster a boss hits, you need to use a TTL model.

EDIT:
The general purpose of a MitigationScale is, to offer preset values that suit different ranges of raiding tiers,
while trying to set the Scale so that EH is roughly equal to Mitigation Points.
A default value for the scale is given, which is 1.0 and no one demands that you change it.
You can change it, when you want that Overall Points favor one rating over the other.
BossAttackValue and Speed are usually constant, you set those values according to the Boss you fight.
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