Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Zibey » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:39 am

Tbh I have exactly the same thoughts.
Ignis bangs for 20-26k, depending on how many adds are there, Razorscale is same story... Really - only minority of heals are overheal, so my Divine Sacrifice goes, and I take 3/5 Divinity... every bit helps to reach that level of hp so I can survive another hit after all.
Funny thing bout Divine Sacrifice is that as far as I could see trash hits so hard that using it, even with bubblewall is instagib for me :/.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Folstar » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:38 am

Spectrum wrote:That extra 5% could make a difference in whether or not the healers can keep up with the incoming. At the least it makes them more mana efficient which will help them avoid running out of mana. It's probably equal to about 3% mitigation in terms of healing throughput.


Questions/Comments
1. Several posts on these forums suggest that it is mathematically unlikely that divinity is going to save you- what is the likelihood of going from full health to dead and overkill being <5% of the amount healed? And further that a lifesaving heal would've landed in the appropriate span of time?
2. It only makes them more mana efficient if they can change their healing based around that 5%- which is highly unlikely. With the rate damage is being dished out the negligible amount of time they can delay from that 5%, if the do (and don't OH, really wasting divinity), is going to translate into a small amount of mana even in a long fight. Amirite?
3. 3% mitigation?!? seriously? Where do you get that number? I'm not certain you can make this kind of stat comparison, but if you are correct I would not mind being wrong this time :D
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Tijeras » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:42 am

I have found that having Divine Guardian which ups the damage that SS absorbs and Glyph of Divine Plea to be Godsends. It adds another button to the rotation (SS) but helps oh so much it's worth a gcd in my opinion. I am still iffy about using the glyph of sanc and sancing myself in a fight. The tick is only 2% but getting to declick it before does more than 6% threat could be tough depending on the situation.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Igrado » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:50 pm

If a Holy Paladin that was glyphed and Libramed for Holy Light centered healing (or for that matter, FoL centered) passed on a 5 talent points that increased the healing caused by his Holy Light (or FoL) casts by 5%, you would question the shit out of that decision.

If the Holydin gets it 5/5, and I get it 5/5, and he primarily heals me for the night, we just bumped up his tank healing by up to 10%. Sure there will be overhealing. There always is. If there were 5 talent points that gave you 5% more damage mitigation, you'd take them. I know it's not quite the same, but you can't tell me it''s insignificant.

I know a lot of people say to not worry about getting Divinity, and I understand their reasoning, but personally my mind is not made up, and I will not be quick to dismiss it.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:18 pm

Igrado wrote:If a Holy Paladin that was glyphed and Libramed for Holy Light centered healing (or for that matter, FoL centered) passed on a 5 talent points that increased the healing caused by his Holy Light (or FoL) casts by 5%, you would question the shit out of that decision.

If the Holydin gets it 5/5, and I get it 5/5, and he primarily heals me for the night, we just bumped up his tank healing by up to 10%. Sure there will be overhealing. There always is. If there were 5 talent points that gave you 5% more damage mitigation, you'd take them. I know it's not quite the same, but you can't tell me it''s insignificant.

I know a lot of people say to not worry about getting Divinity, and I understand their reasoning, but personally my mind is not made up, and I will not be quick to dismiss it.

No, it's not 10%. If he has the talent and heals a warrior for 100 that same heal hits you for 105 assuming you also have the talent, that's a 5% difference. The only time it is 10% is if you are healing yourself. It's different for a holy pally because it would affect all his heals on any target. If divinity was a buff that he had to put on you and could never take it off of you, then I bet he'd skip it. Heck, a lot of holy pallys skip it now because there are other talents they like better. That latter notion is what is important, what you would get in its place. In the case of Divinity, that's usually Divine Guardian or some threat talents.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby majiben » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:21 pm

Less than a 5% increase, a 4.76% increase in relative healing.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby neokai » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:49 am

The big difference between this discussion and the one we had before 3.1 is this: The OP stated that bosses hit a lot harder (1 melee hits for about 10-18k on a tank). So he's musing that Divinity does have a bigger impact/utility than previously thought (most arguments pre 3.1 is that the 5% of healing ends up as overheals, i.e. useless.

As for me personally, i'm sticking to my present 53/18 spec w/o divinity. Haven't really gone too far into ulduar (Kologarn) so just gonna collect data still.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Torquemada » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:29 am

I'm not sold on Divinity at all, but reading this + the free respec we're getting today from 3.1.1 has convinced me to pick up DS to play with on XT. I threw a point in Reckoning for the minimal extra threat/dps(More threat than I'd get from Divinity, i.e. none), but my threat is already more than fine with Crusade atm, so I'm going to see just how useful it is on this fight. I never took DG for Najentus because I tanked him as often as not, but this has me curious.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:22 am

The point "Warrior gets 105 and paladins get 110 with a holy paladin healing them" is immaterial. The point is that Divinity will help with recovery after taking damage. If you're going from full to dead in a very small span of time, divinity will not help with that. If you are constantly not topped off, then it might be looking into, especially if you're running with multiple holy paladins.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Lightbender » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:09 pm

My thought with grabbing divinity has always been that an extra 5% on whatever HoTs you have from druid/priest/shaman that tick in between a heal when healers are bouncing around doing raid healing. I think 5% extra healing on you is going to be bigger when you are an OT and not a big focus for heals. When you are in a MT spot and healers main focus is on you there usually isn't going to be a whole lot of time where healers arn't casting heals(that end up being overheal) on you for expected damage.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Spectrum » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:51 pm

The question about divinity is is it worth the talent points? If it were a flat 5% mitigation and you could spare the points I expect everyone would get it. The problem is it isn't mitigation, and so the mechanics aren't as favorable to it.

If you look at it in terms of how much healing is required to keep you alive:

Let's assume you have 0.12 base damage reduction before armor and avoidance. I'll ignore block for now. The thing is that when you keep getting 5% more mitigation the percentages add up instead of multiply, increasing the relative value of each successive point. With healing they do the same, but because it is an increase in healing instead of a reduction in damage taken the relative value goes down with each additional point.
Code: Select all
Relative difference for 5% mitigation: (1 - 0.12 - 0.05) / (1 - 0.12) = 0.943 => 5.7 % less damage taken.
Relative difference for 5% healing: (1 + 0.15 + 0.60 + 0.05) / (1 + 0.15 + 0.06) = 1.041 => 4.1 % more healing done.

(I'm assuming the healer has +15% healing from talents, Improved Devo Aura, and that you have 12% mitigation from similar (iRF, BoSanc, Glyph of DP)

So every point of additional healing has diminishing relative returns, but every point of mitigation has increasing relative returns. To put that in terms of healing required for a long fight, using the numbers above:

5% mitigation increase means 94.3% healing required.
5% increased healing means 96.0% healing required.

So you see how a healing increase is less valuable than a mitigation increase, and for five talents it just might not be worth it in general. In Ulduar I think we might want as much as we possibly can get. Every little bit helps and I'd rather not have my healers running out of mana and perhaps it will let them toss off another raid heal that would otherwise have meant our rogue dying in a fire.

If they reduced it to 3 points for 6% increased healing on you I'd definitely take it.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:13 pm

Spectrum wrote:So every point of additional healing has diminishing relative returns, but every point of mitigation has increasing relative returns.


The thing is, it's not a choice between +healing and +mitigation. It's a choice between +healing and +dps/tps.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby majiben » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:35 pm

DG is mitigation.
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby Alanyor » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:17 pm

Three days ago I wanted to skip Divine Sacrifice and specc 3/5 Divinity because I didn't use Sacrifice until then.
One day later we went to XT002 in 25, me tanking the adds. 5 seconds before the enrage (boss at 200k or so) we had a tantrum, which could've killed us all, so I popped Sacrifice and only 5 ppl and me died before the boss hits the ground.
Now I don't want to miss Divine Sacrifice. :D
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Re: Divinity after 2 nights in Ulduar

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:05 pm

Majiben wrote:DG is mitigation.


I imagine the choice would be between Divinity and 3.Conviction/3.Crusade. I'm not sure what DG has to do with it?
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