PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:14 am

marsh21 wrote:They need to make Tuskarr's 15% run speed and be done with it so they are at least comparable.

That would make Tuskarr's far too powerful - nobody but Ret would take PoJ then. 7 stamina is clearly not worth 2 talent points no matter how you slice it. At least in its current form, the choice takes some thought; is 7 stamina and 7% run speed worth 2 talent points (and in particular, the loss of 2 points in Conviction)?

I think the nice thing is that there's no clear-cut answer because run speed is hard to quantify. We can now quantify the loss of 2 points in Conviction as 85-90 TPS, and we know exactly what 7 stamina gives us, but 7% run speed is something that's a lot more subjective. It gives people options so they can customize to suit their play style.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:33 am

Also note that making Tuskarr's 15% would have balance implications for PvP, as not all classes have access to 15% run speed now.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Bunni » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:45 am

Runspeed (PoJ or the enchant) isn't just "neat". Getting into position faster means starting dps sooner. Our entire raid is expected to be using the runspeed enchant for Ulduar (at least to start out with) unless something like PoJ makes it unnecessary.

PoJ isn't required by any means in a base tanking build, but it's incorrect to think that it has no impact on dps/threat. Especially if the dps are running faster than you are. This is probably one of those things that probably depends a lot on the group you are working with.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Arquine » Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:50 am

theothersteve7 wrote:Run speed doesn't help on progression kills? I tank adds on Sarth+drakes, moving Maly away from sparks is easier with some extra footspeed, it's easier to grab Sapph right as she lands without her moving, I can pick up the adds in KT a hair faster... I daresay it's one of the most important attributes.

Best two points I ever wasted.


tanking Sarth doesn't require any whatsoever threat so the comparison is void. Again, when tanking Sarth I pull it to the side rather than tank where it stands so I'm roughly at where I want to be before Sarth reaches me, put a -50% run speed on me and it doesn't matter.

Whelps and Elementals are a whole different matter, and since consecrate don't crit - conviction's pretty poor there as a comparison. This is where runspeed and +hit talent is much better than everything else.

Malygos however, I don't see how run speed can make a huge factor here. You're walking backwards or sideways half the time and the sparks are godspeed SLOW. There however, every bit of threat helps and 2% crit goes a very long way - especially with good dps; and I don't mean the usual crappy ones you get at mid-game tier level.

with that said, I took the speed enchant - simply it's worth the stamina loss.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Seloei » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:09 am

There is no clear answer to if PoJ is worth it or not.
I always take it because it is an utility, so what i lose 2% crit when our threat is through the roof already? the only loss would be making the under skilled dps look bad when you hit 3k+ dps on a boss and they can't hit that.

If you are short of threat, get conviction.

But so far... from whats coming in ulduar, i can see that the extra run speed will help on : ignis, razor, mimiron, freya, vezax.
Theres a lot of moving around on those either to pickup a new add or move away from the boss/adds etc. It is not a GIGANTIC difference of not having it, but in my book. It's worth it for progression. It is very much possible to do without it, even without tuskarrs.

It is just a matter of preference, there will always be X amount of who say it is major useful and Y amount who say it is not. With most of them giving solid reasons why their side is worth it and the other is not. Neither of em are a 'make or break' for a tank.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:57 am

Is there any encounter in the game where having PoJ will be a DISadvantage?


This isn't even worth debate.

2% crit will not make or break a tank
7% run speed won't either

Didn't Theck say that it's a question of 85 TPS? 85 TPS! Is that the margin of error between threat capping your DPS and not? If so, we've got bigger issues.

EVEN IF it IS the margin for threat capping your DPS, can you threat cap them and still win?
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Dracora » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:36 am

Isetnefret wrote:This isn't even worth debate.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:16 am

Isetnefret wrote:Didn't Theck say that it's a question of 85 TPS? 85 TPS! Is that the margin of error between threat capping your DPS and not? If so, we've got bigger issues.

Theck did in fact say that. :) 85 TPS is roughly a 1% TPS boost, which while nice, shouldn't make or break anything.

I was out-threating God last night with 5/5 Conviction and 2/3 Crusade. I am sorely tempted to spec into PoJ just for the utility after last nights raid. The last point in Crusade (still unallocated) will make up for the 2/5 Conviction. I'm just afraid I'll never be able to go back. Once you've gone to the dark side....


<edit> Also, great idea for a new bumper sticker phrase: "God is my off-tank"
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:24 pm

Pop Avenging Wrath, crank up Slayer - Angel of Death, and go to town.....or to the raid boss....or whatever...
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Panzerdin » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:35 pm

theckhd wrote:
Isetnefret wrote:Didn't Theck say that it's a question of 85 TPS? 85 TPS! Is that the margin of error between threat capping your DPS and not? If so, we've got bigger issues.

Theck did in fact say that. :) 85 TPS is roughly a 1% TPS boost, which while nice, shouldn't make or break anything.

I was out-threating God last night with 5/5 Conviction and 2/3 Crusade. I am sorely tempted to spec into PoJ just for the utility after last nights raid. The last point in Crusade (still unallocated) will make up for the 2/5 Conviction. I'm just afraid I'll never be able to go back. Once you've gone to the dark side....


<edit> Also, great idea for a new bumper sticker phrase: "God is my off-tank"


Theck, far be it from me to question someone as exalted as you undoubtedly are, but shouldn't 2 points out of a 1% crit talent be worth more than 1% DPS/TPS?
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:46 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Theck, far be it from me to question someone as exalted as you undoubtedly are, but shouldn't 2 points out of a 1% crit talent be worth more than 1% DPS/TPS?


Many of our abilities (SoV, Holy Shield, Consecration, Ret Aura) cannot crit, and that fact that our base crit rate is non-zero guarantees that 1% crit be less than a 1% DPS boost even if all of our damage could crit.

Incidentally, this does remind me to ask if Ret Aura/Thorns are modeled atm.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Panzerdin » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:47 pm

I understand this, but I'd expect it to be above 1%.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:01 pm

Expectations can be deceiving? I mean, having 20% crit or so raid buffed (reasonable in 25 mans), means that from the getgo 1% crit is worth at most .83%, which means that only 40% of your threat has to be from uncrittable sources for 1% crit to be .5% threat. That's pretty back of the envelope, but it seems reasonable and the detailed math is available from theck's scripts if you want to check the minutia.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Panzerdin » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:11 pm

Fair enough.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:29 pm

Panzerdin wrote:shouldn't 2 points out of a 1% crit talent be worth more than 1% DPS/TPS?

I should have been more careful with my wording. I hadn't intended that to be a literal statement. However....

The last point in Crusade will make up for most of the threat lost by dropping 2 points in Conviction.

The numbers are in the talent spec post:
Crusade is 70 TPS per point
Conviciton is 41 TPS per point.

So your intuition wasn't far off, as far as 2 points in Conviction being better. But we're only looking at a difference of 12 TPS , so the gap isn't large.

Also, these numbers will change slightly as gear improves, but due to many of the reasons Dorvan and others cited, it's not clear that Conviction will scale any better than Crusade - I wouldn't be surprised if it was worse, in fact.

And no, Ret Aura and Thorns aren't included in the calculation at all.
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