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3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:05 am

Ulushnar wrote:I'm going 5/54/12 and anyone who voices a dissenting opinion can go fornicate themselves on a rusty doorknob!

Well, rusty doorknobs aside, I don't understand your choice of SotP. If you're going far enough in Ret to get PoJ anyway, you could get 3/5 Conviction + 2/3 Crusade instead of 5/5 SotP. Since each point of Conviction is already slightly better than each point in SotP, and each point in Crusade is substantially better than SotP (math here), you're losing roughly 60 TPS by putting those 5 points in the Holy tree rather than putting them in Ret. And since you already plan on spending the points to get to PoJ, you're not giving anything up to do so.

Again, not suggesting you can't spec the way you want to. This is just friendly advice. There is absolutely no downside to moving those 5 points from SotP to 3/5 Conviction + 2/3 Crusade, and it's a reasonable threat boost.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:08 am

Jasari wrote:Ok, you're not wrong. You're just not optimal.

Just like people who socket with green quality gems and don't have shoulder enchants aren't wrong. They're just not optimal.


Ok, now it's on.

You are not classing people who don't wanna spec Crusade along with people who don't enchant their shoulders.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:11 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Jasari wrote:Ok, you're not wrong. You're just not optimal.

Just like people who socket with green quality gems and don't have shoulder enchants aren't wrong. They're just not optimal.


Ok, now it's on.

You are not classing people who don't wanna spec Crusade along with people who don't enchant their shoulders.


Hehe, I saw that one coming ;)

So where do you draw the line between not-optimal and wrong?

Would you compare giving up DPS/TPS by specing into SotP instead of Conviction/Crusade with using green quality gems? What about not using a belt buckle? Not having a food buff? What about all those things combined?

Using good gems, belt buckles and shoulder enchants is 100% better than not doing those things, just as specing conviction/crusade is 100% better than specing SotP.

[edit]
Bad wording there, 100% implies it's twice as good. I should have said it's better without having any downside.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:15 am

theckhd wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:I'm going 5/54/12 and anyone who voices a dissenting opinion can go fornicate themselves on a rusty doorknob!

Well, rusty doorknobs aside, I don't understand your choice of SotP. If you're going far enough in Ret to get PoJ anyway, you could get 3/5 Conviction + 2/3 Crusade instead of 5/5 SotP. Since each point of Conviction is already slightly better than each point in SotP, and each point in Crusade is substantially better than SotP (math here), you're losing roughly 60 TPS by putting those 5 points in the Holy tree rather than putting them in Ret. And since you already plan on spending the points to get to PoJ, you're not giving anything up to do so.

Again, not suggesting you can't spec the way you want to. This is just friendly advice. There is absolutely no downside to moving those 5 points from SotP to 3/5 Conviction + 2/3 Crusade, and it's a reasonable threat boost.


Dear Jasari, this is how you convince someone of your point without sounding like like a prat. Please take notes.

@Theckhd: I'll consider this, tbh I avoided 90% of the 3.1 threads out of sheer apathy. I just wanna go fast and with the exception of Malygos, threat has never been an issue.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Faeth » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:18 am

Well then speaking of optimization, how can the reasonably popular Imp. LoH spec i linked in my original post be considered 1 of 2 valid raiding specs?

Meaning (imp) LoH would be an 11 minute situational OH CRAP button which most likely compensated for lacking healing, whilst the Crusade spec provides increased threat AND DPS during the entire encounter, resulting in the encounter taking less time, ultimately increasing the odds of downing the boss.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:21 am

Dear Ulushnar,
by saying:
anyone who voices a dissenting opinion can go fornicate themselves on a rusty doorknob!

I decided a sarcastic reply was warranted :p

Thank you for acknowledging my effort.

I will now go off to find an open minded rusty doorknob.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:24 am

Jasari wrote:I decided a sarcastic reply was warranted :p


Yah see, I would have applauded sarcasm if you'd employed it. You, however were condescending.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:25 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Majiben wrote:People who optimize should do that why?


People can optimise all they want. But the moment they tell me I'm wrong for speccing this way, that's when the rusty doorknob sodomy will commence.


It's strictly inferior to taking those points, putting 3 into Conviction, and 2 into Crusade. The only difference is in threat talents, and 3/5 Convic + 2/3 Crusade > 5/5 SotP. You're free to spec however you want though, and it won't bother me as long as I'm not raiding with you :P
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:35 am

Faeth wrote:Well then speaking of optimization, how can the reasonably popular Imp. LoH spec i linked in my original post be considered 1 of 2 valid raiding specs?

Meaning (imp) LoH would be an 11 minute situational OH CRAP button which most likely compensated for lacking healing, whilst the Crusade spec provides increased threat AND DPS during the entire encounter, resulting in the encounter taking less time, ultimately increasing the odds of downing the boss.


Imp LoH is a tradeoff, you're losing some threat to lower the cooldown on Imp LoH, and more importantly, gain the ability to use it proactively (throwing up the armor buff right before some big physical hits are coming). You may or may not like the idea, but it can't be said that it is more or less optimal than a crusade spec because you're comparing apples and oranges....threat vs. mitigation.

Comparing the 5/54/12 build to a 0/54/17 build however, we *can* say that your build is sub-optimal, because they only differ in 5 points of threat talents, and the points in the Crusade build give more threat than those in SotP. Thus, for any tradeoff of mitigation and threat, 0/54/17 would still be more desirable than 5/54/12.
Last edited by Dorvan on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:44 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Jasari wrote:I decided a sarcastic reply was warranted :p


Yah see, I would have applauded sarcasm if you'd employed it. You, however were condescending.


Ok.

You were still asking for it.

Sorry if I hurt you e-feelings.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:49 am

When you start the conversation with "everyone who disagrees with me can fuck a rusty doorknob", you're not allowed to complain about the tone of the replies you get. Just for future reference :P
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:51 am

Also, for those interested in how the math nerds among us are speccing, here's my current plan:

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAbuMusIufdxf0x0M

Basically the standard high-threat build. One point unused, which will likely go in Crusade. I'm probably not going to allocate it until I'm sure that I feel comfortable with 1/2 SA. My guess is that all the math is correct and it will be fine, but I want to test that out empirically for myself. The 2nd point in Imp Judgement may go in Benediction for the hell of it as well.

The 2 points in Divine Guardian can be shuffled around between DG, Divinity, Reckoning, and Imp HoJ. At the moment I'm a little wary of DG. I'm not sure how often I'll actually make use of Divine Sacrifice now that it's uncoupled from Divine Shield, and I already barely use Sacred Shield. However, I'm already well aware of how weak Reckoning is (16 TPS per point is really quite bad when you're doing upwards of 7.5k). I see HoJ as a PvP talent primarily, since an on-the-GCD interrupt is fairly useless. And I don't consider Divinity a great (or even good) talent.

Once we're more familiar with the content, I'll shuffle those two points around if something stands out as more useful than DG. If Blizzard has actually managed to balance Ulduar in such a way as to make Divinity useful, that's probably the most likely place.
Last edited by theckhd on Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby ulushnar » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:55 am

Dorvan wrote:When you start the conversation with "everyone who disagrees with me can fuck a rusty doorknob", you're not allowed to complain about the tone of the replies you get. Just for future reference :P


And here's me assuming people would get I was joking. Ok, I hereby apologise to anyone who have rusty metal filings in their naughty bits.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby mconeone » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:05 am

theckhd wrote:Also, for those interested in how the math nerds among us are speccing, here's my current plan:

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZi0tA0uMusIufdxf0x0M


FYI that build has divinity instead of DG. The thing I like about DG is you can toss SS on a random person and have a minute of reduced damage. It's nothing huge but the duration makes it much easier to manage.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:08 am

Do you rarely use Sacred Shield because it's always being put on you by someone else? If so, it's possible you'd want to reconsider now that Pallies can only have one SS up at a time, depending on your raid make up.

If you apply SS to yourself then DG is more threat per point than Reckoning....I have it at about 40 tps per point (assuming judgment substitution to apply SS)....based on about 2500 judgment damage per use
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