[Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

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[Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Herbe » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:52 pm

What is the best potion to pop when "going all out?" I haven't been able to find any numbers on them.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40211 seems to be the default, but http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40212 looks like a very good boost, as does the old http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22828.

Has anyone seen numbers on these? Seeing as Haste is essentially a crap stat for us (this looks to be changing with 3.1), It seems intuitive (to me anyway) that a 9%crit + 200 sp or 120 Str would provide a better DPS increase. I looked for numbers on EJ, etc. and tried googling it too, but couldn't find any comparisons.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby majiben » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:34 pm

After running it through redscape's calculator 3.0.9 version, will repeat later in the 3.1 version
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40212 wins. Adds 229 DPS in my ret gear.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40211 comes in second. Adds 227 DPS in my ret gear.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22828 comes in last. Adds 209 DPS in my ret gear.

This isn't modeling during heroism when you would be most likely to use it.

Heroism modeling:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40212 wins. Adds 246 DPS in my ret gear.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40211 comes in second. Adds 227 DPS in my ret gear.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22828 comes in second too. Adds 227 DPS in my ret gear.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:06 am

It's extremely... odd.. that potions of speed are 227 dps under lust and not under lust.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Selgar » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:55 am

Elsie wrote:It's extremely... odd.. that potions of speed are 227 dps under lust and not under lust.


No, it isn't. Haste potions add a % of haste based on weapon speed not current haste, which means in both cases the base number is the same.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:28 am

Selgar wrote:
Elsie wrote:It's extremely... odd.. that potions of speed are 227 dps under lust and not under lust.


No, it isn't. Haste potions add a % of haste based on weapon speed not current haste, which means in both cases the base number is the same.

Haste effects are multiplicative. If 500 haste rating gives something like 20% increased attack speed, and bloodlust gives 30%, it should be [speed / 1*(1.2)(1.3)]. My initial reaction would be that Maijben's modeler is calculating the haste increase speed before the lust instead of the other way around.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby majiben » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:22 pm

I didn't see a heroism option for the modeler so I modeled it as 983.7 haste rating (30% speed increase).
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:42 pm

Then you need to rework your numbers for haste. If 500 haste rating gives ~15% haste, then your numbers are [speed / (1*(1+0.15+0.3)] when it should be [speed / 1*1.15*1.3]. The former is 145% and the latter 149.5%, so you'd need to find how much the 4.5% affects dps.

Well, for giggles, if 500 haste rating gives 227 dps, then ~2.2 haste rating gives 1 dps. 32.79 haste rating = 1%. 4.5% == 147.555 haste rating equivalent. This means you have an extra 147.55/~2.2 == 66.99 extra dps. Assuming this is right, that puts a haste potion in lust at 294 dps.
From Wowwiki:
    Haste stacks multiplicatively. This means that it is beneficial to stack multiple haste effects. For instance, stacking Slice and Dice with Blade Flurry gives a total of 68% haste (140% * 120% = 168% of the base attack speed). Haste rating stacks additively with itself (two sources of 100 haste rating give 200 haste rating stacked together) and then is converted into a percentage that stacks multiplicatively with other sources of haste. For every 32.79 points of haste rating you will have 1% faster attack speed at level 80.
Of course, 500 haste rating is ~15.25%, which is slightly higher than my assumed 15% above.

Of course, I'm also highly suspicious the bloodlust value for 200 crit/sp is wrong, too.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby majiben » Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:24 pm

Yeah you are attributing the dps gains from heroism to the haste potion without considering the effects on the other potions. It's pretty close to a wash especially considering the effects of the RNG.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:07 pm

No, I was attributing the net benefit of stacking lust with the potion of speed to the speed potion, which would be correct (i.e. you gain 4.5% due to multiplication using them together instead of apart). I'm not sure what you're doing for the 200 Crit/SP or how you got the original number.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby majiben » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:22 pm

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-redc ... 09_v2_5_a/. In particular the 2.5 version for 3.0.9. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &n=Majiben was the gear set I used.

You didn't recalculate the heroism effect for the other two potions and thus didn't have a proper comparison for the other potions.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Levantine » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:10 pm

Lol at your rings.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Elsie » Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:54 pm

You didn't recalculate the heroism effect for the other two potions and thus didn't have a proper comparison for the other potions.

My point was to show your heroism calculation with potion of speed was flawed, not to provide a new analysis. As I don't know the details of modeling +200 crit rating and spell power I'll leave that to you. It's entirely possible your original post was correct for it.

A simple way would be to simply calculate how many extra white swings you receive for Heroism under the affects of the potion as to not under the affects, then apply the 200 crit/sp value to those.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby majiben » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:05 pm

Levantine wrote:Lol at your rings.
Shush you, you try to pick up rings for your offspec when they won't drop >.<

As far as modeling heroism, It's not my spread sheet and I'm a little wary of trying to model heroism without inadvertently changing the dps numbers in other spots.

I'll also need a citation that haste modifiers like heroism, Swift retribution and windfury totem are not equatable to haste rating. I can't say either way as of now.
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Levantine » Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:08 pm

Majiben wrote:
Levantine wrote:Lol at your rings.
Shush you, you try to pick up rings for your offspec when they won't drop >.<


You mean like the Ruthlessnessand Hemorrhaging Circle I'm wearing? (Rawr says the Hem is a slight upgrade over Frosted Thorns for those wondering)

:3 :3
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Re: [Ret-PVE] Quick potion question

Postby Elsie » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:31 am

Majiben wrote:I'll also need a citation that haste modifiers like heroism, Swift retribution and windfury totem are not equatable to haste rating. I can't say either way as of now.

It's rather simple to spec into swift retribution, giving you 3% haste, then chugging a potion of speed, 15.25% haste, and seeing if you end up with 18.25% or 1.1525*1.03. Similarly, simply get lust cast on you with and without the potion. I'm not on at the moment but I look forward to your results.

It's also relatively obvious since if these aren't multiplicative you can achieve negative attack speed.
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