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Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Smartos » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:25 am

toothdecaykills wrote:If folks were comfortable with 5/5 AD, I see no reason why 2 less points wouldn't be cause for celebration.

That's it. But there are enough people finding it still too expensive. For one point, it would be ok, but not for three.
Of course, this is a question of personal flavour, as usual with AD.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Ossuary » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:37 am

While it's true there are bosses that can two shot you in Ulduar (Ignis for instance). There is still trash packs, bosses who don't hit as hard and adds on fights. Against that ONE boss that will two shot you yes AD is basically useless however don't forget there is an entire instance there with him.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:50 am

Ardent Defender is a very small part of our mitigation, has been calculated to be less than 2%.


I'll make it big for people to be sure to read it:
Ardent defender mitigates only the 2% damage that would have killed you
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:32 pm

Worldie wrote:Ardent Defender is a very small part of our mitigation, has been calculated to be less than 2%.


I'll make it big for people to be sure to read it:
Ardent defender mitigates only the 2% damage that would have killed you



Technically that's not correct though. In fact I'm willing to bet if you are considering trash, that the amount of damage AD mitigates that would not have killed you and the amount of damage it mitigates when you end up dying anyhow, represents the overwhelming majority of what it does. However, I'm also certain that it will save an occasional wipe on bosses, more than any other option we have.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:34 pm

Fridmarr wrote:However, I'm also certain that it will save an occasional wipe on bosses, more than any other option we have.

That's my (and not only) thought.

As long as it can save you even once every 100 cases, it's worth all the points.
Ulduar also looks having plenty of occasions for AD to trigger. The 100%->dead bosses are relatively rare. AD also combines terrifyingly well with a Discipline Priest. We use one. Every guild who raids with 2 healing priests should imo.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Holyday » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:47 pm

For progression, AD is really nice considering that trash is involved in progression and it is an excellent trash talent. For bosses it will also find its uses. Considering we used to spend 5 points in it, 3 is a steal. I would only recommend skipping it once that content is being farmed, as is now. I know I have robbed some points from it in some of my current builds.

There will be a boss or two that hits will leapfrog it, but its not like an entire instance is filled with those type of hits. Consider other talents we have that might not have an impact on certain boss fights but do on others. Would you spec out of guardian of the light (pre DP) just because there will be one boss that doesn't cast a single spell? Will you spec out of redoubt because of one boss that never melee's?
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:42 pm

It's also a matter of "what do i gain by skipping AD"?

In TBC, i almost never had AD, but what i gained? I proudly ran around with one of the first 40/21, Sanctity Aura spec, you gave up a pulling tool and a situational mitigation talent for a boost in threat of > 20%.
Now what exactly you gain by not taking AD? 3% TPS? Is it worth it?
Answer: no.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Smartos » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:48 pm

Worldie wrote:I proudly ran around with one of the first 40/21, Sanctity Aura spec, you gave up a pulling tool and a situational mitigation talent for a boost in threat of > 20%.

How did you get >20% more threat with the 40/21? Sanctity Aura were only ~9%.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:01 pm

Smartos wrote:
Worldie wrote:I proudly ran around with one of the first 40/21, Sanctity Aura spec, you gave up a pulling tool and a situational mitigation talent for a boost in threat of > 20%.

How did you get >20% more threat with the 40/21? Sanctity Aura were only ~9%.


I think Sanctity Aura was 10%, but you'd spec into Crusade (+3% most of Sunwell) and maybe some other things I'm missing. Of course, that's only if you can't get a Ret Paladin into your group, but at the time you usually couldn't because of the way buffs synergized.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:02 pm

Smartos wrote:
Worldie wrote:I proudly ran around with one of the first 40/21, Sanctity Aura spec, you gave up a pulling tool and a situational mitigation talent for a boost in threat of > 20%.

How did you get >20% more threat with the 40/21? Sanctity Aura were only ~9%.

Normally you'd just go Benediction + Deflection + Imp Judgement (last one not even always) in Retribution.

With 40/21 you would take Convinction (altho i always took PoJ), Crusade, Sanctity Aura. (original 38/23 included Improved Sanctity Aura too, been running that until 2.3)

My 40/21 was worth 700+ (i think highest i did was 780) DPS on brutallus back then. Yes, DPS.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Smartos » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:13 am

I know the old specs, even looked them up before posting. Yet, I'm a little bit ... surprised how you got >5-7% of your total threat out of conviction which only affected the autoattack. Quite interesting.

Of course, the advantages of a crusade spec today aren't as great as those of the 40/21 back in 2.4. However, this shouldn't mean that AD is automatically a must-have-talent now. Surely, it can save your raid - sometimes if you are lucky. AD rather saves thousandths of boss attempts instead of percents. If you have specced crusade, you can use a more defensive gear and maybe have a better survivability this way.

And to clarify it: I do not think that AD ist a completely useless talent or anything like that. But I dislike the dogma that you de facto have to take it. There are other options than just taking AD without questioning its benefit.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Nalyn » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:55 am

Worldie wrote:It's also a matter of "what do i gain by skipping AD"?

In TBC, i almost never had AD, but what i gained? I proudly ran around with one of the first 40/21, Sanctity Aura spec, you gave up a pulling tool and a situational mitigation talent for a boost in threat of > 20%.
Now what exactly you gain by not taking AD? 3% TPS? Is it worth it?
Answer: no.


That becomes more of the issue, yes, you can drop AD, but you still have to spend those points to get to the tiers of the prot tree past the talent, which means you spend them either in, essentially, pvp talents (uh...no), or in Divinity (somewhat useful, but, again, not great). So it boils down to what's less useless, most will likely still be taking AD for its potential mitagation, would be my guess.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby leperkhaun » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:37 pm

honestly there is no reason to not take AD. while yes it might not be useful every boss fight, if its useful on even 1 or 2 then its better than any other option we have, more so if its a progression kill.

AD is worth it, by itself its a good talent. However combined with DP, its a super talent. its what gives your healers that extra 1 second to land the heals and prevent a wipe.

If it can prevent 1 progression wipe, take it, because what other talent are you going to take that can do the same, not 3/5 divinity.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:10 am

Plus AD is one of our class defining abilities, and our "reply" to the lack of active panic buttons.

It would be like a warrior not training Shield Wall "because my healers are good enough". 5 point cost + the option of 40/21 was a ok trade-off, but 3 point cost and no real useful option to take instead...
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Tryanddie » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:19 am

Worldie wrote:Plus AD is one of our class defining abilities, and our "reply" to the lack of active panic buttons.

It would be like a warrior not training Shield Wall "because my healers are good enough". 5 point cost + the option of 40/21 was a ok trade-off, but 3 point cost and no real useful option to take instead...


You compare an active panic button with a passive skill that saves your life in dependence on pure luck?

Shield Wall is a warrior basic skill, they have to train Laststand (and it's a 1 Point Skill).
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