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The return of CC

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The return of CC

Postby leivadith » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:25 am

WotLK has proven to be an AoE wet dream for everyone. AoE tanking, dps etc. For the last 6 months, if we include the pre expansion, patch 3.0.0 period, cc, kill orders, single target dps have been a thing of fireside tales.

From what’s being circulated by blizz, in Ulduar we’ll be seeing the return of the need to utilize cc and so on. I’m not sure of the extent, but from what they’re saying, they’ll be needed. The question is, how long will our dps, CCing raid members need to re-learn these abilities? Do you see potential for some long learning or relearning curves for them to re-adapt their gameplay? Will this be a chance to separate the wheat from the chaff?


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Re: The return of CC

Postby Jasari » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:22 am

Yeah, targeting a mob and pushing a button before starting to DPS will cause most guilds weeks and weeks worth of wipes on trash. This incredibly hard ability and dumbass mages and priests were able to master at level 37 in RFD will have a rough learning curve for raiders :roll:
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:24 am

CC? Constant Consecration? Aren't we doing that already?
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Levantine » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:21 am

And to think I was looking forward to being able to get away with a HB -> BB -> DnD -> Fap rotation. :(
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Kelaan » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:50 pm

I believe Fap is restricted to those playing elves, draenei, or female trolls/orcs.

... except for a few who play gnomes, those weirdos.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Viycktor » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:01 pm

CC is a lot more streamlined now than it once was.

There are a ton more options for CC in a raid then even in 2.0 (well, options that make it easier at least with more silence/interrupts and DKs amazing ability to position trash). But the problem never was that the hunter couldn't kite that caster around the corner over his trap... well for some guilds it was, but the problem was often with cc being broken early. Sometimes it the fault of a dps, or a tank, sometimes the confined circumstances of a room/hall or tight mobs make it so that there's very little room to cc multiple mobs -making errors more likely. There are a million ways that may cause a large pull with required CC to become uncontrolled and complicated.

It may not cause weeks and weeks of wiping, but the 2-3 additional wipes a night to TRASH can be incredibly time consuming and morale damaging to your raid (and can be a barrier if you get respawns).

There have been plenty of CC fights in the history of WoW raiding that were more challenging than the 'don't stand in the fire' of WotLK, but since then, many many AoE/chain type abilities have been made 'smart' in that they won't chain to CCed mobs. I'm not gonna lie, mixed trash pulls where suppressing one mob (kite, fear, CC, stun-lock) rather than off tanking or chain silencing it were some of the best and worse trash. When large pulls get too out of control it's sometimes difficult to pin down the cause so that you may 'separate the wheat form the chaff'.

I think guilds who have members unaccustomed to dealing with more chaotic situations may have a steeper learning curve. Currently you may be getting by with dps who are unable to follow directions, and this will allow you to find them more easily, but there may not be quite the culling one would expect if everything were reverted back to 1.x style CC/AoE mechanics. (You may need to tell your hunters to look in their spellbook to make sure they trained abilities OTHER than steadyshot, otherwise they may have to visit the trainer :P)

IF (and it's a big if) a lot of CC really does become necessary, it will be of some concern to prot paladins as well as dps.
- SoV: if we accidentally hit a mob -see HotR- that is to be CCed, it will get dotted and if; say a hunter was attempting to cc it and missed a shot for some reason and you hit it with a HotR before they pulled it into a trap, there will be trouble.
- Consecrate: this one is easy to deal with in tight CC spaces -don't use it- but it is an important part of our threat rotation, an if we are forced to leave it out other tanks (druid/warrior) may be a better option for speed runs - we share this issue with DK tanks.
- HotR: great for getting SoV up to 5 stacks quickly (or spreading them for) but can be a bit uncontrolled at times if we're not careful. Is this a 'smart' AoE that won't hit CCed targets like AS?
- HoR: in a CC heavy encounter this taunt will see alot more use because (and this may be ignorance on my part because I NEVER use CC anymore) our alternative taunt doesn't work so well on CCed mobs as they have no active target, and if that's the case, our hit rating may become relatively more important on trash to prevent missed HoR taunts.


PS: The trash pulls before Hakkar in ZG (vanilla) were some of the most fun pulls we ever did in my old guild... we had a kill order with a no-holes-barred approach to suppression -fear bombs, kiting, stunlocks were all fair game. 8)
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Spectrum » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:12 pm

I'd look forward to a little bit of CC. I doubt it will be a huge problem, though some people who haven't done much grouping on their character (e.g. a new alt) or got a character with a new CC ability (e.g. shamans, paladins) may take a while to get used to keeping track of CC.

My guess is even if CC becomes required it will be more of a keep-those-two-mobs-CCed-for-30-seconds-while-we-kill-their-friends and so reapplications won't be an issue.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:16 pm

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Re: The return of CC

Postby knaughty » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:59 pm

Viycktor wrote:IF (and it's a big if) a lot of CC really does become necessary, it will be of some concern to prot paladins as well as dps.
- SoV: if we accidentally hit a mob -see HotR- that is to be CCed, it will get dotted and if; say a hunter was attempting to cc it and missed a shot for some reason and you hit it with a HotR before they pulled it into a trap, there will be trouble.

I feel dirty saying this.. but: Use SoB for trash.

(1) Doesn't put a DoT on random mobs.
(2) Substantially more threat over the short-term. SoV (almost) catches up once at a 5-stack, but trash doesn't live that long.
Viycktor wrote: - Consecrate: this one is easy to deal with in tight CC spaces -don't use it- but it is an important part of our threat rotation, an if we are forced to leave it out other tanks (druid/warrior) may be a better option for speed runs - we share this issue with DK tanks.
Consecrate is highly optional for trash unless you're AoEing it down anyway.

"Speed run" and "trash need CC" are mutually exclusive to a certain extent. The way you get fast at "Sunwell" or "KT" trash is by getting efficient and reliable at not fucking it up. IE: Getting through a trash pack with no deaths or wipes. This is a very different tactic than a Naxx speed run.

It is also worth noting that tankadins are very strong at multi-target TPS and mitigation. Once we start getting to actual terrifying trash, the role of the pally tank is usually to pick up and hold the three weak-hitting melee mobs. Someone else is doing the casters, and you also have a different tank dealing with the OSHIT dude in the trash pack who needs a solo tank, and is probably your first burn target. As a pally, your three dudes are killed after the "oshit" target is killed, so you have time to generate some threat and drag them off somewhere safe to drop a consecrate anyway.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:03 pm

Knaughty wrote:It is also worth noting that tankadins are very strong at multi-target TPS and mitigation. Once we start getting to actual terrifying trash, the role of the pally tank is usually to pick up and hold the three weak-hitting melee mobs.


I am not certain why this situation would require two tanks -- why would we not just solotank the three weak-hitting mobs and the one Ohshit mob? Unless there is a specific gimmick that requires the mobs to be tanked physically distant from each other, just tanking them all seems like it would be more efficient.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby knaughty » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:18 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I am not certain why this situation would require two tanks -- why would we not just solotank the three weak-hitting mobs and the one Ohshit mob? Unless there is a specific gimmick that requires the mobs to be tanked physically distant from each other, just tanking them all seems like it would be more efficient.

Some of the "oshit" trash in the past has hit hard enough to kill you if you're tanking anything else. Hell.. some of it has hit substantially harder than some of the bosses.

Other times, the weaker trash has had not-so-weak cleaves or PB-AoE damage (or stuns).

Stacking frontal cone effects.

Short-range heals.

Chain-lightning...

There's been a whole pile of reasons that "The MT just tanks everything and we heal him lots" hasn't worked.

As far as I recall... Naxx-25 is the first instance where "stack up all the trash and AoE it down" has been a viable tactic for first or second clear. It's also the first raid instance I can recall where you'd deliberately pull multiple packs once you're farming the instance. (Farming Kara for badges in Tier-6 doesn't count).

Level 70 content had a ton of stuff where the trash required 3, 4 or even 5 tanks for safety and repeatability. The problem wasn't finding things for tanks to do on trash, it was finding things for the extra tanks to do on bosses. This, at least, is something they've got a lot better in Wrath.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Jasari » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:08 am

BC definitely had harder trash that required multiple tanks. But I think the biggest reason that no one really did the "tank it all and AOE it down" strat was that Paladins were the only tank that had any hope of holding aggro on a large group of mobs and not that many guilds had Paladin tanks. That's not to say SSC, TK, etc were really AOE-able, I think the vast majority of trash packs would rape you if you didn't use some CC, but the change in tank AOE threat has been a large contributing factor to the current state of clearing raid trash.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:13 am

Knaughty wrote:It's also the first raid instance I can recall where you'd deliberately pull multiple packs once you're farming the instance.


We AoE pulled significant portions of BT when we were farming it. Gurtogg trash, Akama trash, and Gorefiend trash in particular come to mind as being the most aoe-friendly; we'd pull multiple Mother packs, but those don't really count. Very little of T5 was multi-pack friendly (other than Tidewalker's room, which we'd pull 3-4 at a time), but people (generally) didn't farm T5 anyway, so that's a moot point. There may have been more, but I don't recall T5 trash as well as I do T6/6.5.

Knaughty wrote:Level 70 content had a ton of stuff where the trash required 3, 4 or even 5 tanks for safety and repeatability. The problem wasn't finding things for tanks to do on trash, it was finding things for the extra tanks to do on bosses. This, at least, is something they've got a lot better in Wrath.


I can't think of any trash that required 4 or 5 tanks -- do you have specific examples in mind? I can't even think of any trash that required 3 tanks. The only 2-tank trash I can think of in T5 was those robots that overloaded, and for the first couple weeks of BT double-tanking the generals in Naj's room was painful.

SWP trash we've done with two tanks and two sheeps, but I know when we were deeper in the instance we had nights with two tanks and one sheep.

I did a lot of AoE tanking at 70, and "The MT just tanks everything and we heal him lots" was more common than not, and I can't think of any instances where it wasn't viable. Some places it wasn't optimal, but that's not the same thing.

And I don't think they've really found more things for tanks to do on bosses, even though Wrath is mostly re-hashed L60 instance, when you'd have 6 tanks in a 40 man raid.

Malygos is a single tank encounter.
You can do all of Naxx with a single prot spec and single feral druid (or DPS DK).
S3D 25 is a 3 tank fight, but apparently some people have done it with 2.

But anyway. Unless multi-tanking is impossible because of a gimmick (e.g., trash mobs with polarity!), I tend to think people will be powering through it sooner than later. Trash that is "weak" can almost be ignored (assuming moderate melee damage, and tank BVs in the 2.5-3k range). Cleave doesn't matter unless people fail at positioning. Stuns can be problematic, but are no worse than a statistically improbable poor avoidance streak. WW/pbaoe fucks melee, but almost everything does, which is why ranged DPS tends to outnumber melee 2: or 3:1 in our raids.

The devs seem very confident that CC is going to be required, which suggests gimmicky trash. Unless it's physically impossible, I think it'll still be more efficient to group things up and nuke them. Even CCing inside a damage zone is a net RDPS increase, given how much AoE damage raids do. With hex and sheep glyphs, it's almost a no-brainer.

Well, we'll see in the next couple weeks.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby Jasari » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:22 am

The first pulls of TK trash required a good amount of CC and 3-4 tanks due to WWs and Stun. If you had more than one of those mobs WWing on top of each other it'd destroy people (even at 80 it hurts more than most Naxx trash),

SSC trash could be done with two tanks, but it was unnecessarily messy due to knockdowns and knockbacks.

Making trash require multiple tanks or CC doesn't really take gimicks, it just requires that the mobs have more abilities than auto attack.
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Re: The return of CC

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:35 am

Jasari wrote:The first pulls of TK trash required a good amount of CC and 3-4 tanks due to WWs and Stun. If you had more than one of those mobs WWing on top of each other it'd destroy people (even at 80 it hurts more than most Naxx trash)


We sheeped one, I aoe tanked the rest, and an OT would drag one mob out for melee to kill while ranged killed everything on me. Occasionally the sheep would break, but no one would notice. The first couple weeks we did use 3 tanks, but it devolved into AoEing fairly quickly: we only spent 10 weeks in T5 before moving on.

I remember the trash in TK being the most unforgiving, but we never really outgeared it, or did the content while outgearing it. Once we were all keyed for T6, we didn't go back, so we did it in "level appropriate gear," as it were.
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