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Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

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Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:09 am

I keep reading about the high chances of AD being leapfrogged by the damage output of the bosses on Ulduar. Are we gonna be looking more often at the chances of MT build specs without AD gain popularity come 3.1? If so, what's the alternative?
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 am

AD might not be the best MT talent out there. The debate has been rehashed a zillion and one times and I think we can all agree that there are times when it's a life saver and there are times when it's completely and utterly useless.

However, giving up the 3 points for AD doesn't allow you to get any alternative mitigation talents. So it comes down either choosing AD or threat talents and I really don't see many, if any progression MTs taking threat talents over AD.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:25 am

Jasari wrote:AD might not be the best MT talent out there. The debate has been rehashed a zillion and one times and I think we can all agree that there are times when it's a life saver and there are times when it's completely and utterly useless.

However, giving up the 3 points for AD doesn't allow you to get any alternative mitigation talents. So it comes down either choosing AD or threat talents and I really don't see many, if any progression MTs taking threat talents over AD.


I'll be honest, I've been saved a couple of times in Naxx25 by AD during the Maexxna fight - My healers tend to be slackers that only seem to go into "Oh SH--" mode come the enrage and the web, and even there have been times I die because they failed to top me off before the enrage.

It's just like I said, I keep reading the WoW forums and more often than not, I read people saying they will move their points away from AD because of how often it is leapfrogged in Ulduar - I just wonder if there might be some true behind it that would render AD more useless than not because of the nature of the fights.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:33 am

Well then like I said, AD offers more mitigation than threat talents do and that's what the choice comes down to.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Bleedingstar » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:54 am

Any theorycrafting on replacing the points in AD with points in Divinity?
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:03 pm

Bleedingstar wrote:Any theorycrafting on replacing the points in AD with points in Divinity?


If you care that much about survivability to max out Divinity, you'll be replacing points in Crusade or Conviction with points in Divinity.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:05 pm

Bleedingstar wrote:Any theorycrafting on replacing the points in AD with points in Divinity?

Yeah, don't do that.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Selinaria » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:54 pm

AD get's leapfrogged yes. It is annoying yes. But there is absolutely no other worthwhile mitigation talent out there that is worth a damn compared to AD.

Fridmarr wrote:
Bleedingstar wrote:Any theorycrafting on replacing the points in AD with points in Divinity.


Yeah, don't do that.


Divinity is not even close to AD, as Fridmarr points out.

Edit: My gramar iz gud.
Last edited by Selinaria on Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Zironic » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:57 pm

Indeed, as Jasari says earlier, if you want 5/5 divinity for the love of god take it out of a threat talent like conviction or crusade and not AD.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Awyndel » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:55 am

Sounds like your healers need to l2 hot. es mending etc won't hurt either.

Yess AD is unreliable, it still saved a LOT of lives. Avoidance is unreliable too, doesn't mean you should drop it.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:43 am

Basically, the other posters are right. AD is not wonderful, definitly not a mitigation talent you can count on for boss fights, but usefull for trash tanking.

Skipping it, is not really an option, as there is nothing better to fill out the points we need with.

Frankly, AD simply needs to be tweaked so it either cannot be leap-frogged, or at least can provide some tangible benefit in boss fights.

In Nax, the bosses hit softly enough that leap-frogging was rarely an issue...

However, as usual, as content gets tougher, Blizzard simply drops back to the old (true to form method) make the bosses hit harder...

The net result is that AD becomes much less reliable in Ulduar and will probably become totally useless in post-Ulduar content unless they adjust the talent.

Many of us are campaigning for them to change it now.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:17 am

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Many of us are campaigning for them to change it now.


I've seen that on the forums - at least make it like WotN - still have yet to see any blue ones drop a hint they're actually listening to the tankadin community.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:28 am

I doubt AD will ever consistently be useless on bosses. There has never been a pattern of bosses that can two hit you with their autoattacks, which is what is required to always leap it. While boss damage will go up, so does our health, and the issue is what percentage of our health can they take on a single swing. Bosses with a big hitting special attack are often fairly friendly for AD, like Malygos when he was progression and it's still a fairly common mechanic. You won't get consistent help from it on hard hitting bosses, but it usually won't be completely useless and it will still strengthen the bubblewall. The unfortunate part is that it is on those rare cases of bosses can leap or power through it on every swing, that the community tends to derive its perception about tanks.

If you want to go on a crusade to get AD tweaked, I'd suggest not making some of the sensationalized comments that I see floating around. A lot of them aren't true or are being considered common, when in reality they are specific to just a few encounters. Just showing a relationship between hit size, paladin health, and AD's effects would be sufficient. If the case is compelling, the numbers will speak for themselves.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Solare » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:47 pm

Perhaps you need to see Ardent Defender as not being unlike a CD ability. Except, of course, for the fact that it has no CD, and has a passive trigger that you don't have to worry about and can last for the entire duration of the fight. (Also known as Red Zone Defense) If you compare this to other on demand tanking abilities like Shield Wall or Icebound Fortitude, yeah, it has it's downsides, but as far as being there when you need it? I think many tankadins take it for granted, because it works behind the scenes to save your ass. It's hard to see it working. But the position of it scaling with health and effective health and it's duration/effectiveness ratio makes AD one of the key points of being a tankadin. Frankly, in my opinion, you're not a real tankadin unless you have this defining talent. One way to help you more readily appreciate AD is to install the Tankadin addon and engage the AD notifier. After watching it /rw across your screen a few times in just one fight should give you a new perception.

Ardent Defender: Saving your butt without even making a fuss. Kinda like us. Thank you, AD, thank you.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:11 pm

Solare wrote:Perhaps you need to see Ardent Defender as not being unlike a CD ability. Except, of course, for the fact that it has no CD, and has a passive trigger that you don't have to worry about and can last for the entire duration of the fight. (Also known as Red Zone Defense) If you compare this to other on demand tanking abilities like Shield Wall or Icebound Fortitude, yeah, it has it's downsides, but as far as being there when you need it? I think many tankadins take it for granted, because it works behind the scenes to save your ass. It's hard to see it working. But the position of it scaling with health and effective health and it's duration/effectiveness ratio makes AD one of the key points of being a tankadin. Frankly, in my opinion, you're not a real tankadin unless you have this defining talent. One way to help you more readily appreciate AD is to install the Tankadin addon and engage the AD notifier. After watching it /rw across your screen a few times in just one fight should give you a new perception.

Ardent Defender: Saving your butt without even making a fuss. Kinda like us. Thank you, AD, thank you.
I like AD more than most, but this is probably a bit much. If anything, blizzard undervalues(d) the significant power of controllable burst mitigation abilities, see DKs nerfs for proof of that. Yes, AD has much bigger limitations for being there when you need it than something that you can control. It's definitely not a pally defining talent, at least not now that we are supposed to be tanking bosses instead of just AoE packs. It's popular in the absence of other options, but it's not a great MT talent against challenging content.

I used to run the tankadin addon, back in TBC, and if anything it showed me that AD was quite optional.
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