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[10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

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[10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Avengeance » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:17 pm

Hopefully I can give some insight into solo tanking "the world" in Sarth +3 10 men... i.e. drakes + adds. I've done it a few times myself, not completely experienced, but Ive had successfuly kills with various setups.

Group setup - A holy pala is almost a key figure to ensure you can successfully solo tank it. Why? They have something that you have - Righteus fury. RF + Big heals = add magnet. As you may have figured out in your Prot pala career - adds aggroing 1 target is easier to taunt than adds aggroing 5 different targets. Also, adds hitting on holy palas wont 2 shot them compared to those crappy cloth priests! Holy palas probably have 20+k armour. Now if you can find something else to do the add magnet job for you, then do so, something like a DPS DK dropping DnD on portal is an example (then you RD off him), but that doesnt solve the fire elementals running wild to random healers - so i strongly recommend holy pala.

Positioning - As you might have figured if you tanked drakes before, they have a funny hitbox, and likes to flap around a lot when you tank them (sneaking to your side, sneaking behind u etc)... now adding 7-10 adds on top of that that also likes to run behind u = chaos. So you need to avoid movement. Position your Holy pala friend _behind_ the drakes somewhere within close melee range, but not close enough to get breathed on, reason being Hammer of Righteous can reach and sometimes consec might be able to reach. Also you want the adds to have a short running distance between you and the target you taunted - because when the taunt runs out (3 seconds), if you havent made any new threat on them, they'd most likely run back to the person you taunted from.

Tanking spot - I personally like to tank at the south side of the platform in one safe zone (near where shadron lands). When Tenebron lands, usually a wall comes, I aggro it and pull it to the safe zone on the south side then just take the rest from there. Strife left or right to avoid walls etc - remember minimal movement is key, especially if you are melee heavy group - if you move a lot, they have to move = dps down time.
When Vesperon comes, I do _not_ go over to pick him up, instead I either get a MD from hunter or just let it heal aggro someone (Holy pala usually), and just taunt. From experience he doesn't breath while hes running to you. Again, just to minimise movements.
Also, another reason why i keep on south is... the MT is also on south side, and my holy pala told me we are in range of each other for beacon. (And that helps a lot when you run 2 healer).

Add pickup - The dangerous part of adds are the whelps - they actually hurt non tanks a lot. What you need to do is ENSURE AS is ready when whelps are about to come out (and get a good amount of hit helps to make sure it doesnt miss - I have like 230 or so in my normal tanking gear). Whelps spawns in packs of 6-7 if i remember correctly - AS picks 3, other 3-4 should be aggroing your holy pala - RD him. Now if you see anymore on the pala, use single taunt, and you have just held everything onto you. Keep consec down at all times and holy shield, because you will be taking a lot of damage now. Before the whelps spawn, I usually look around on the screen and pick up any fire elementals loose with RD and single taunt, which means you need to be good at watching your screen, and a good camera angle (zoomed out very far looking onto the whole platform).

Use your CDs - Depending on your DPSers, you most liekly will be tanking Tenebron + Shadron + a bunch of adds and reduced armour on yourself. This is a good moment to use shieldwall. Even after Tenebron dies, you still have adds and Shadron on you - and adds reduces your armour quite a lot (last time I looked I was on 9k armor after debuff). So, I use a Indestructible Potion (+3500 armour for 2 mins), followed by trinks (JC dodge trink + Repelling charge) just to squeeze more survival.

Who kills adds??? - Well, your main focus should be telling your DPS to nuke drakes full time, while you hold aggro of course. But someone has to deal with the adds eventually. Depending on your group setup, thers 2 ways - if its heavy melee based, melees will have off-target AOE that will wear down adds pretty fast (with your own AOE help from Consec and hammer). If its caster based - for my case, I got the ele sham to use thunderstorm every CD and add chain lightning to his rotation, while the enh sham dropped Magma totem. Any other classes with some offtarget aoe is nice while remaining main damage focus on drakes.

Notes for your holy pala - Use Divine shield wisely, especailyl when specced into DG. Unless adds are gonna kill him, save it for crucial moments like twilight torment or double drake tanking. (If adds are raping him, it's probably your fault). Use concentration aura to avoid spell push back (if you can get a FR totem from a shaman or something). Use FR aura otherwise if you need to mitigrate fire elemental dmg, but I find un-interupted heals is more important... every milisecond counts in that fight.

Oh, get a good raid frame addon - I use xperl, but it seems that the xperl aggro alert doesnt seem to work effectively on add aggro (it doesnt detect it most of the time somehow), not sure if grid is telling you who got add aggro because I dont use it... but if whatever raid frame you use does tell you immediately whoever has add aggro, it will make your tanking job a lot easier - at least you dont have to look for the adds on the screen. My work around with xperl is... i just read the health of raid members - if they are dropping abnormally (its quite easy to tell when twilight torment isnt up). Remember, keep using your taunts, when thers dead time of nothing happening, just RD on your holy pala, maybe you missed an add on him or something.

And to summarize.. my general tactic with 2 tank is... kill drakes as they come (usually one before the next one spawns), and noone does any direct aoe dmg to adds at all. Depending on your healers capabilities and group setup, you can either take portal after Shadron or only take it once all 3 drakes are dead. I'm sure thers a big enough discussion on the strategy on other threads.

BTW, once you mastered this, you'd feel like a better tank, and actually enjoy this fight when as a tank you got something to do unlike most of naxx ;)
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby trellian » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:14 am

Avengeance wrote:Oh, get a good raid frame addon - I use xperl, but it seems that the xperl aggro alert doesnt seem to work effectively on add aggro (it doesnt detect it most of the time somehow), not sure if grid is telling you who got add aggro because I dont use it... but if whatever raid frame you use does tell you immediately whoever has add aggro, it will make your tanking job a lot easier - at least you dont have to look for the adds on the screen.


This is easily explained. The blizzard threat API only allows to show threat for stuff that is targetted (by anyone in your raid).
Usually your healer will not be targetting any adds, just like dps will not at the start. Thus you will not see your healers' unitframe show an agro alert. Best thing to do is just ask that healer to should out if he gets adds on him so you can RD to pull them off of him. Also make sure he's always standing in your consecration.
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Salamandra » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:58 pm

I deal with whelps much more easily just by tanking Tenebron ontop of the portal. If the lava wall comes from either direction you barely need to move, and can still keep consecration on the portal all the time easily.

Also for dealing with blazes: Use macros. I use 3 macros, each for targetting and using RD on a person. I used 1 for each healer and 1 for the DK dps (who was the only other person who gets blazes on him).
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Dobbelsteen » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:04 am

For your raidframes problem, I use grid and it has no issues showing aggro when my healers get it.
Personally I pull/taunt/poke all adds myself though, I don't like having 1 healer as a decoy in case 4 adds happen to spawn together and all go straight for him with RD on cooldown. Armor doesn't help with the fire based damage the elementals do iirc.
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Avengeance » Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:31 pm

Problem with tanking drakes on the portal is you might endanger your MT healer (shadow breaths).
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Panzerdin » Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:49 am

Don't point him at your MT healer?
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Avengeance » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:19 am

Drakes like to flap around when you move them from flamewalls, its hard to point them where you want him to. I just find tanking them near MT healer is far riskier than picking up whelps using other methods. But whatever works for anyone... by all means use it.
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby culhag » Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:12 am

Do you have any aggro problems on the drakes ?
Some of our dps are already very close to me on the drakes, and I fear that having to watch for the adds at the same time may hurt my TPS too much...

Still it's an interesting idea. Thanks for sharing !

EDIT: also, do you run with 2 or 3 healers ?
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Salamandra » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:08 am

When I do it, I go with 2 warlocks who do ~5k dps and have no threat reduction talents at all. Threat usually isn't a problem. Having taunt macros makes handling the adds quicker so you have more time to attack the drake. Also pop Avenging Wrath on Tenebron, I use Divine Protection on Vesperon landing, so it's up by the time I'd use it anyway.

I go with 2 healers.
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Avengeance » Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:02 am

Avenging wrath + Shieldwall is now only 30 secs apart, so u can use it at start of tenebron and have it ready again for _shadron_ landing. I did it with 2 healers and 3 healers, difference isnt big. Aggro wasnt an issue at all, except some arcane mage with no -threat talent pulled aggro when Tenebron was on 1%, but that was because i was already building threat on Shadron and left Tenebron alone.
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby culhag » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:43 pm

I've convinced my raid to give it a try on our next night of attempts.
I hope I'll be up to the task !
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:04 am

I convinced some people to try it this way tonight... Should be interesting to work out positioning (I'm hoping to do it on top of the portal).

I may have gotten a little too synergy-happy in my setup, though. The beefiest dps I scheduled is an ele shaman... it's all casters. So, who tanks the portal adds? Ele shaman? Boomkin? Boomkin switched to bear? I can see where a frost DK would fit in well for HB and doing primarily spell damage would still synergize.

What I scheduled:
DK tank for sarth
Me for tanking "the world" as it were.

Disc priest
Holy paladin

Warlock (aff)
Ele shaman
Boomkin
Spriest
Arcane mage
FFB mage

Not a lot of passive AE either... just chain lightning and living bomb. We'll have to see how it pans out. Thanks for the guide!

-- Also, I know I've seen a nice little MSPaint image of the "tank everything on top of the portal" positioning... I can't find it. Anyone know which thread that was?
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Avengeance » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:19 pm

I think your ele sham or boom is well capable of tanking the portal (with the one not tanking healing of course), although I think ele sham is a better healer. Or you can just jump into the portal yourself (seeing as all adds are dead), and tell teh main tank upstairs to handle the fire adds while you are inside the portal realm.
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:01 pm

Avengeance wrote:I think your ele sham or boom is well capable of tanking the portal (with the one not tanking healing of course), although I think ele sham is a better healer. Or you can just jump into the portal yourself (seeing as all adds are dead), and tell teh main tank upstairs to handle the fire adds while you are inside the portal realm.


It went surprisingly well. We didn't win, but we did get Shadron dead ~15 seconds after vesperon landed on our best attempt. There are a lot of ways for things to go horribly wrong early on, though. :) At that point people hopped into the portal, but for whatever reason I got mushed shortly after that, and then we all died horribly. We're thinking we'll probably clear out the whelps before taking the portal instead of after they come back out from killing the 2 acolytes. Hopefully TT won't be too much of an issue on a quick AE explosion.

The rest worked very well, though. I just macro-ed an RD on the healadin into my rotation, and once the kinks got sorted he stayed alive fairly well. We did Tenebron with speed pots for everyone, then had Tenebron+Shadron up for ~8 seconds, and then popped heroism for shadron, which extended out an extra 8 seconds to overlap with Vesp for 15 or 16 (seemed like exactly the same kill time between the two), but if we even had a breath of doom, the DK tank didn't notice... heh.

One thing I was missing was enough passive AE to kill things. I'll have to nudge the ele to add more into his rotation. We literally never killed a whelp in all of our attempts. We're tempted to clean up whelps as early as when tenebron dies, but that makes me nervous.

One question was where to put Sarth... we've normally done the "near" corner, but tanking Tenebron on the portal makes it really easy for me to click on Sarth by accident if he gets into frame. I had him tanked way in the back instead, but that tank complained that the walls were harder to dance through.

Another question is who's best suited to heal whom. I had the holy paladin healing me with beacon on me for when he was raid healing, and the disc priest was healing the sarth tank. It seems to me like the holy paladin should beacon me but heal the sarth tank, so I'm getting larger heals from beacon, and the disc priest may have more to offer for shields/insp procs and raid healing.

-- Huh, fade armor can actually fall off... it fell of twice on our best attempt:
http://wowwebstats.com/6m5hze3uhxcpi?s= ... e+armor%22
I guess 130 shadow resistance works pretty well vs. binary spells.
I also seem to be full-blocking most everything, so with 81% of my table full the adds were nice and minimized until I had to move. Moving sucks...
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Re: [10] Sarth +3: How to tank solo Drakes + adds as Pala

Postby Avengeance » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:18 pm

Yea you are meant clear the adds before you take portal (to save the healer some trouble). Although if your healing can handle, just ignore the portals all together until you kill all 3 drakes (ele sham should be full time healing at this time when Twilgiht torment is up).

We tank sarth in the eastern side of the island, with him turned south. (Translating to something more understandable, we tank him on the edge of the platform nearest to the entrance, turned "left" if you are standing at buff spot looking at him before pull).

I had Holy pala healing me the add tank + the raid, and a holy priest healing Sarth MT. I think the holy pala put beacon on me and healed whatever else that took damage (probably himself). MT healing isnt an issue until 2 drakes are dead when Sarth is starting to melee like a machine gun, but by that point there should be no whelps up, and then holy pala can switch to beacon heal the 2 tanks. Bare in mind tho, when twilight torment is up, you really need an extra raid healer (ele sham) or things will die quite fast.
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