Rawr.ProtPaladin

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Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:25 pm

I'm Solieu, current maintainer of the Protection Paladin model for Rawr.

If anyone was following it, Ermad had stopped working on Rawr.Tankadin a few months ago and since then Neganur and I have picked up development on it.

In the upcoming Rawr release such a large amount of changes were made to the model for Protection Paladins that we have renamed the model to Rawr.ProtPaladin.

Rawr.ProtPaladin now complies with the rest of the Rawr Tanking models in using Effective Health for its survival rating instead of the odd formula it had used before. It also uses Rawr.ProtWarr's ability to choose TankPoints instead of Rawr's Survival+Mitigation+Threat model.

I am asking for those incredibly savvy with both math and theorycrafting to assist in adding accurate support for certain features that the current version is lacking, such as Ardent Defender modeling and Reckoning.

I am also asking for those who use Rawr.Tankadin extensively to let us know what features and options you'd like to have included that you feel would greatly benefit the model.

Any feedback or bug reports would be greatly appreciated, either here in this thread (I'm lurking on maintankadin pretty damned often) or at the rawr website (http://rawr.codeplex.com)

This Rawr.ProtPaladin model is *not* currently in the beta 2.2.0b5, but it will be in the following beta.

I can look into putting my current internal beta on a file hosting service for the sake of testing Rawr.ProtPaladin. Stay tuned for that.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:29 pm


Download Links:

Current release is : v2.2.4
Released: May 14 2009
Link: Rawr v2.2.4.zip
Last edited by Neganur on Thu May 14, 2009 9:53 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby knaughty » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:51 pm

The MATLAB thread pretty much killed Reckoning again.

Also: Only seal you need to worry about is still SoV - Blood and Righteousness still fail in 3.1

Thus: AD modelling is highest priority by elimination. Good luck...
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby majiben » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:14 pm

MATHLAB Thread. If you have the head for it (and you likely do) it's a feast of information. SoR just caught up to SoV when it's glyph was 30%, now that it's back to 10% it's no contest again.
Last edited by majiben on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby _Chloe » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:09 pm

Sticked this thread, un-stickied the old one.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Gamingdevil » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:42 am

I assume diminishing return calculations have been fixed this version? In Rawr.Tankadin I always had less avoidance than in actuality.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:07 am

DR has been fixed in Tankadin since.. I think 2.2.0b2 or b3.

It is most definitely fixed in ProtPaladin.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Gamingdevil » Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:35 am

Shame on me for having 2.1.9 then, I'll wait with updating now untill ProtPaladin is out.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:08 pm

I was expecting beta 6 to be out today but I guess that has since come and gone. I'm going to go ahead and post a download link to my current working copy of Rawr. I've only included the Paladin (including both Tankadin and ProtPaladin) and Warrior modules in this one.

http://rapidshare.com/files/215190951/R ... e-beta.zip

We're currently really pleased with the progress that Rawr.ProtPaladin has made and the updates over Rawr.Tankadin.

Since the last version:

-Added Reckoning support based on theck and co.'s matlab calculations
-Rearranged Options window
-Target Creature Type support and the bonuses based on creature type: Exorcism 100% crit on Undead and Demons, Crusade's additional damage bonus, Glyph of Sense Undead
-Support for character Mana, Int, SpellHit, SpellCrit
-More accurate Mongoose enchant modeling
-Cleaned up the amount of items shown

Right now we have it set so that only items with tanking stats (defense, dodge, parry, block) on them are shown (with the exception of trinkets; they have a greater variety of stats that are considered relevant). They *still* exist in Rawr, they're just hidden to ProtPaladin as non-relevant items. The current way to add DPS plate items will involve switching to the Retribution model to pick those DPS plate items as available then switching back to ProtPaladin. I can add an option to re-enable Resilience plate items, and otherwise would like to hear if any particular items are missing from being displayed.

We still need some help with a few features for Rawr and would love some further close assistance with it. If you find yourself to be an expert with theorycrafting, I'd love to find a working formula for Ardent Defender.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:19 am

Would love to try it out, but Rapidshare tells me you have removed it :(
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Nich » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:48 pm

Gamingdevil wrote:Would love to try it out, but Rapidshare tells me you have removed it :(

Possibly because b6 was put up on rawr's download site on April 2nd/3rd : )

http://rawr.codeplex.com/Release/Projec ... seId=25625
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:36 am

I love you... in a purely platonic, non-gay way of course *cough*

On-topic: There doesn't seem to be a maximum amount of points you can spend in the talent calculator and 50% of the time when I right-click something it scrolls to the top.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:01 am

But b6 doesnt contain the ProtPaladin module...Am I missing the obvious here?
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:33 am

There was a series of issues that prevented ProtPaladin from being in beta 6; I'm trying the best I can for it to be ready in the next beta.

The posted version I had up in my last post had a very nasty crash when doing optimizations, and had major trouble with enchant handling.

I can look into getting something public probably by tonight. If you can't wait, my suggestion is to get the source from http://rawr.codeplex.com and using a free C# compiler like SharpDevelop to put it together and give it a try. You really don't have to be a developer to download the source, open Rawr.sln, then hit Compile / Run Without Debugging.

Latest changes since my last post include support for partial spell resists & glyph comparison charts.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:06 am

I was really wanting to try ProtPaladin so I tried just that yesterday :)
But when I got it up and running, the item cache only contained the items that was on my current aromory profile...any hints as to how I use the item cache from the released version?

Edit: Spelling
Last edited by Imbabubble on Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:22 pm

When you are compiling from source, it does not automatically move the DefaultDataFiles to it's necessary locations. In the base directory, there is a folder called DefaultDataFiles or somesuch. move the contents of that into /bin/Debug/Data/ and it'll show.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:40 pm

Super, thank you :)

After playing around with the initial tankadin module a log and the new propaladin a bit, I have the following questions/feedback:
o Why use the terms mitigation/survival? I rarely see these terms used on the boards, usually the talk goes to Effective Healt (same as survival?), avoidance, BV etc.
o Options for optimizing for unhitable would be great...cant seem to find it, but maybe thats just be being blind
o Sort options in lists based on TankPoints/Unhitable rating/etc would be nice
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:37 pm

I'm trying to come up with the best way to answer this.. Mitigation and Survival ratings aren't my creation, they were (by my understanding) made by the Rawr coordinator, Astrylian. The easiest way to explain it is it's how *Rawr* does ratings, and if I am to work on a model for Rawr, it's one of the things I have to abide by. I think that gets the message across well enough without getting too deep into it.

Survival Rating *is* Effective Health, Mitigation Rating *is* a Damage Taken %, merely scaled up to match Effective Health in a method to be able to compare the two. The common number is something like 7000 * (1 - Mitigation%)^-1 = Mitigation Rating.. it's actually a bit more complex than that, and the number changes according to gear level and such.

There is optimization for Unhitability, but in the form of "Avoidance" or "Avoidance + Block".. I suppose we can add "% Chance to be hit" or something, but that might overcrowd the list of optimizable options.

Sorting based on TankPoints is (in ProtPaladin) by going to the Options Tab, under Rankings select TankPoints. At that point Mitigation Rating on the charts is now equal to Tank Points. I don't like the way that works at the moment, but I'll look into making it a bit more apparent that it's now TankPoints.

In ProtPaladin there is also a setting to show just the raw DPS an item provides. I can modify that to show the raw Avoidance / Avoidance + Block an item provides as well, if we're all that interested in sorting it.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:54 pm

Ok, I was afraid that the mitigation and survival was part of the base rawr.

I had not seen "Avoidance + Block" in ProtPaladin, it is a nice addition compared to tankadin and will do nicely :)

Regarding sorting on TankPoints, yeah its a bit backwards but as long as we get some discussion going on this board about how to use Rawr.ProtPaladin I dont think its a big issue.

Thank you for your quick responses...now I just have to figure out why TankPoints (in game addon) says that I am unhittable and ProtPaladin says that I still need about 4% to reach 102.x% :)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:09 am

I've got my fingers in those hit numbers at the moment, I was surprised as well first time I saw that.
Back then, I realized I was all cool with DR on parry and dodge but had completely forgotten about miss.
(I hate the Paperdoll frame and all that comes with it /cry, it just shows numbers and never tells you what they represent)

Use Tankpoints to check your miss chance and be sure to check the Target level in both Tankpoints and ProtPaladin is set to the same value.
A boss has a higher chance to hit you than a level 80 mob.

The addon Tankpoints is assumed to be spot on, barring bugs of couse but I trust Whitetooth to have enough people poking him in case there's something off in his addon.


Regarding those ranking terms....I was preparing to post about it here to get an idea of what we need to add.
We can't change that Rawr uses those terms as ranking default (= numbers = some % chance * some number to make pretty bars) and to be frank, they do make sense if you believe in certain model strategies.
I completely agree though, it's not the most common strategy. To make Rawr really cool for those who believe in Tankpoints, EH or TTL there's the option to change to that ranking model.

On top of that, for what it's worth, I'd prefer to let the user set the caps he believes in manually.
Like for example the 1h / special attack hit cap against Boss Level Mobs:
Do you believe in 8% ?
Are you from EJ and believe in 8.2% ?
Are you from the past and cling to 9% ?

Nothing is worse than getting numbers based on a model someone else made. Without the option to change the basic caps, there's just too many people who will say "can't use Rawr...it's doing it wrong" etc.
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:13 am

Hmmm, I will have a good look at TankPoints values and the ProtPaladin values when I get home from work and try to figure out the difference. Although I am pretty sure that TankPoints was configured for lvl 83 mob...Ill post my findings :)

Regarding the difference in terminology, Im not sure how important it is. As a first time tank, I found it hard to see through. However, given a bit of advice from you guys, its really no problem.

Regarding user defined caps...I belive the Rawr.Mage module has something like that on an advanced tab...personally Im not that strong of a theorycrafter that I beg to disagree with the makers ;)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Imbabubble » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:45 am

Ok found the "problem" :)

The rawr armory character importer is having a bit of trouble translating the current talent choices to the 3.1 talent trees in the current version of ProtPaladin...fair enough. With the talents corrected Protpaladin, TankPoints and Maintankadin2 all agree that I am 0.34% short of being unhittable :oops:
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby solieu » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:50 am

Beta 2.2.0.7 is out, with ProtPaladin finally replacing Tankadin.
get it by following the download link at the rawr website (http://rawr.codeplex.com/)

ProtPaladin is our new, 3.1 ready, Tanking/Protection Spec Paladin model for Rawr, with a great emphasis on accuracy and frequent updates, maintained by active Paladin tanks.

If there are *any* missing features from Tankadin or especial changes that make you dislike ProtPaladin over Tankadin, please let us know!

Since we last reported in, Negarine/Neganur has been working diligently on refining the accuracy of our threat calculations, giving Hit% a much more realistic (and damned huge) value as a threat stat.

Don't forget that when optimizing your set, the default Boss Attack Value is still set for "Standard Naxx 25 Bosses" (Grobbulus/Anub'Rekhan) at 25,000 base attack. For a better fit, set Boss Attack Value to either 50,000 (Malygos and standard tier 8) or in the 80,000 range for bosses like Steelbreaker hard mode.

To look at Ulduar items, they are currently unspecified and thus under the Unknown filter. The best way to do it is to make custom filters that encase iLvl 219 items for normal mode Ulduar, and iLvl 216-232 for heroic Ulduar, iLvl 239 for hard mode.

Expect a filter and item cache update in the near future to make up for the Ulduar loot display issue.

Your feedback in reporting bugs and requesting features is greatly appreciated here. Negarine and I are frequent visitors to Maintankadin and respect this community a great deal; your words have a large weight on the direction and management of Rawr.ProtPaladin!
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Neganur » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:59 pm

Current release is : 2.2.0.9
Released: Apr 17 2009
Link: Rawr v2.2.0.9.zip

check it out :-)
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Re: Rawr.ProtPaladin

Postby Modal » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:28 pm

So, something seems off to me in the tankadin rawr module, and has for some time. In particular, it seems that the contribution of armor is weighted way, way too heavily.

For example, Rawr tells me that 240 armor is far and away the best possible glove enchant. This disagrees with the judgment of most knowledgeable tankadins and also with blizzard's (wouldn't the 800 armor enchant available to engineers be completely OP if this were accurate)?

It also recommends gemming Agility over Dodge, even with the threat scale turned all the way down, and this seems to be true no matter where you set the mitigation scale.

If you turn the mitigation scale way up, you get more reasonable rankings for enchants (armor vs. agility/defense to cloak, for example), but then stamina seems to be vastly undervalued (at 400% mitigation scale, it tells you to gem parry before stamina).

I wonder why this is? My best guess would be that the original author copied some code from the bear module which included the bear armor multiplier or something. Any thoughts?
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