3.1 build with SA

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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Selinaria » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:02 am

Maxed out crusade, 3/5 conviction and PoJ agogogo with 1/2 SA. I will either take 3/5 divinity or Divine Sacrifice + Divine Guardian. Situationally, 20 second CD HoJ would be nice but it will probably not be my standard spec.

Considering perma-divine plea, I just doubt there will ever be a really crucial time for 2/2 SA.

-On bosses, either you take a lot of damage from most raid bosses and are good to go or the boss does little damage and perma-divine plea is an upgrade to regen overall.

-On trash, either you are fighting a lot and BoSanc is enough along with support from SA and DP or the trash is marginal and you are better off than before with perma-divine plea. (or you just pull more)
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Banamor » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:53 am

how about something like this:

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAfofdIIRGoxf0xb

This was my first stab at the latest talent tree and I am torn between putting 5 pts in Conviction or putting those 5 pts into Divintiy instead. I just keep thinking that "increases all healing effects on you by 5%" could come in handy for our healers. What do you guys think is more beneficial: 5 pts in Divinity or 5 pts in Conviction?

:D
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Palizangetsu » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:53 am

Banamor wrote:how about something like this:

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAfofdIIRGoxf0xb

This was my first stab at the latest talent tree and I am torn between putting 5 pts in Conviction or putting those 5 pts into Divintiy instead. I just keep thinking that "increases all healing effects on you by 5%" could come in handy for our healers. What do you guys think is more beneficial: 5 pts in Divinity or 5 pts in Conviction?

:D


3 points in Conviction and 2 in Crusade also you may not need 2 points in SA and can go 1/2 and put that last point in Crusade also.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:31 am

I'm struggling with whether to go (1/2 SA and 3/3 Crusade) or (2/2 SA and 2/3 Crusade).

On paper it definitely looks like 1/2 SA combined with DP and BoSanc should be enough to keep us with plenty of mana in just about any situation. However, I wonder if 1-2% additional damage is worth risking that extremely rare occasion when 5% extra mana from SA would save you from going OOM.

I'd imagine that mana would have to be never be an issue ever to make dropping a point in SA worth it. Oh, and this is strictly speaking from a raiding and the occasional heroic perspective - I don't PvP as prot.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Arquine » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:43 am

in reply to an earlier post, I don't get why we must spec into reckoning. I find Imp. HoJ turned suddenly from a pretty much useless talent to an essential core to us. While it's entirely situational, what used to be a 1 minute CD interrupt becomes a pretty handy 10 seconds spell interrupt?

I am tempted to take 1 point away from Ardent Defence and place it into 3/3 Crusade
This is probably my spec, or 2/3 Crusade and 3/3 AD.

My argument against any point in PoJ is that I rather simply lose that much stamina and have slightly less run speed for 2% more crit. While it's very little boost, the itemization point gain is a lot more. Plus I'm a threat whore - there can never be enough threat (and dps).

On a 25 man raid, I might also be tempted to spec away from 3/3 HotC and put 4/5 into benediction. since all our spells are instant , benediction affects them all - wonder if we can afford to downgrade to 1/2 SA with that?


Argument against taking divinity - age old TBC argument really - more healing just simply translates to overhealing, though this might be an extremely useful talent in 10 mans. Plus with our current gear we're the one with the lowest amount of HP amongst the tanks which seems to me is quite ... not sure what's the word to say , loewst hp + extra healing isn't the greatest combo.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby majiben » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:54 am

Fully talented HoJ is a 20 second on the GCD, prone to miss, rotation screwing, threat hemorrhaging ability. It is not reliable for when you most need an interupt and thus not a needed talent.

Benediction is still a poor talent and we can do 1/2 SA perfectly well without it.

Additionally while we might have some of the lowest HP our EH agaist melee attacks is great and against magic we are just behind warriors by a very small margin.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Loras » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:05 am

Majiben wrote:against magic we are just behind warriors by a very small margin.

*thinks for a second about the warriors' T8 4-piece bonus and bursts into a painful cough*
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby majiben » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:02 am

You wouldn't point to our T8 4 piece bonus and say we have more base BV now would you? I think most of the tanking community agrees that the warrior 4 piece is a mistake. In the end we will get the last laugh as they are forced to carry around their T8 gear into T10.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Jasari » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:17 am

So I'm not thinking I'm going to go with this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9722

It looks to be almost the highest DPS/TPS spec, would be the highest if I took a point out of SA and moved it to Crusasde.

I don't really want to do that though because I just can't see 1-2% more DPS/TPS being worth the very rare chance of going oom since having no mana is infinitely more debilitating than doing 1% less damage.

In order to get deeper into ret, my 4 "wasted" points went 2/2 imp Might and 2/5 benediction. I pretty much always have a ret pally or ele shaman to raid with so I didn't see much benefit to HotC and imp Might will make Pally blessing easier to manage... I won't have to have the ret pally might himself and kings me while I sanc myself and kings him. Obviously those 4 points can be debated but the bottom line is there's no ideal allocation for them and they're somewhat of a waste however you slice it.

the 3/5 Reckoning is obviously a little LOL, but the alternatives are very situational and reckoning does provide a minor DPS boost. I just think I'd rather have something that benefits me a little bit all the time than something that only benefits me very rarely.

The only thing I see myself possibly changing is the SA->Crusade possibility but we'll see.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Conaan! » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:11 am

Jasari wrote:So I'm not thinking I'm going to go with this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9722

It looks to be almost the highest DPS/TPS spec, would be the highest if I took a point out of SA and moved it to Crusasde.

I don't really want to do that though because I just can't see 1-2% more DPS/TPS being worth the very rare chance of going oom since having no mana is infinitely more debilitating than doing 1% less damage.

In order to get deeper into ret, my 4 "wasted" points went 2/2 imp Might and 2/5 benediction. I pretty much always have a ret pally or ele shaman to raid with so I didn't see much benefit to HotC and imp Might will make Pally blessing easier to manage... I won't have to have the ret pally might himself and kings me while I sanc myself and kings him. Obviously those 4 points can be debated but the bottom line is there's no ideal allocation for them and they're somewhat of a waste however you slice it.

the 3/5 Reckoning is obviously a little LOL, but the alternatives are very situational and reckoning does provide a minor DPS boost. I just think I'd rather have something that benefits me a little bit all the time than something that only benefits me very rarely.

The only thing I see myself possibly changing is the SA->Crusade possibility but we'll see.



on the mana thing, considering how hard bosses will be hitting, 1/2 SA will keep you up rather easily, if you require more mana as the boss isnt hitting you hard enough, blow divine sacrifice and take some raid damage to top off your mana bar

obviously you will have to drop to 2/5 reckoning, but the uptime difference is minimal
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby caerdydd » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:55 am

Hi guys.
I've been reading the 4 first pages to try to understand everything :)

This is what I'd like to try so far http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9722

But I have a question regarding "Improved Judgements" and the fact that we can include in the threat rotation "Exorcism" now.
I've seen some of you with 2/2 in IJ. Doesn't it break the 969 rotation? How can I include "Exorcism"?

What would you change in my template?
Thanks
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Jasari » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:03 am

caerdydd wrote:Hi guys.
I've been reading the 4 first pages to try to understand everything :)

This is what I'd like to try so far http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9722

But I have a question regarding "Improved Judgements" and the fact that we can include in the threat rotation "Exorcism" now.
I've seen some of you with 2/2 in IJ. Doesn't it break the 969 rotation? How can I include "Exorcism"?

What would you change in my template?
Thanks


2/2 Improved Judgement doesn't let you use it any more often under a standard 969 rotation. However, there are times when a standard 969 isn't possible or isn't the best idea and in those cases having judgement available 1 second sooner may or may not be beneficial. You also have to consider that in order to go deeper in the ret tree you have to find somewhere to spend 4 "filler" points and with no real beneficial options, there's nothing inherently wrong with going 2/2 imp judgement.

As far as working exorcism in, it's less Damage than every single ability in a standard 969 rotation (with the exception of HS, which you are going to be keeping up regardless). I believe it comes close to Judgement but because of LoO, Judgement is still superior. The only times it'd be worth working in are in non-infinite mana situations when you'd want to replace every other consecration with it, or on undead mobs where it always crits where you'd also want to replace consecration with it.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby caerdydd » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:25 am

I know what you mean when you say that sometime the 969 rotation cannot be applied. From what I understand there is not need to change the way we are playing by adding new abilities in our rotation am I right?

What about the glyphs I've chosen assuming Ive got enough hit to take the +8% hit glyph off?

Glyph of Divine Plea
Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance

Do we have any idea what will be the new talent that "Divine Sacrifice" leads to?
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:30 am

It's Divine Guardian and it increases Divine Sacrifice by like 10% or something. Not sure why they haven't added it to the tree yet, but I believe it has been in the notes for a couple of weeks. There are probably better options than the Hammer glyph, but nothing mandatory. I'll probably use the salvation glyph.
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Re: 3.1 build with SA

Postby Jasari » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:38 am

caerdydd wrote:I know what you mean when you say that sometime the 969 rotation cannot be applied. From what I understand there is not need to change the way we are playing by adding new abilities in our rotation am I right?

What about the glyphs I've chosen assuming Ive got enough hit to take the +8% hit glyph off?

Glyph of Divine Plea
Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance

Do we have any idea what will be the new talent that "Divine Sacrifice" leads to?


RD is on the spell miss chance (17%). So it's very unlikely you will have enough hit to remove the glyph and never miss with it. You have to consider though if it's alright for it to miss occasionally, especially when you have two different taunts, each off the GCD.

Odds are for the majority of fights you won't wipe if RD gets resisted, but there are probably times when you will so it's a call you'll have to make for yourself. I know that I personally will be dropping the RD glyph and replacing it with the DP glyph. (Going Judgement, SoV, DP)

Initially it was implied that Divine Sacrifice would lead to a altered version of Divine Guardian that basically increased its effectiveness. I don't believe we've had any update if this is still the plan.

I personally wouldn't take the HotR glyph simply because it's mainly only useful on trash. We have a wide range of abilities to pick up AOE mobs as it is - AS, HotR, Consecration, RD and I don't think one additional target for HotR will have much benefit outside of very specific 4-mob AOE pulls.

And to answer you initial question again, there is no reason to deviate from the standard 969 rotation when MTing on a standard encounter.
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