[Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption/Rotation

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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:47 am

Elsie wrote:Bellator is probably assuming Damage Per Move, not Damage per CD. For example, Divine Storm potentially does more damage than Crusader Strike. But Crusader Strike every 6s does more damage than Divine Storm every 10s. Thus, Crusader Strike is of a higher priority than Divine Storm. Consecration is different. It's a DoT, thus using it earlier separates CDs as well as deals damage during CD conflicts.


Except you still don't prioritize CS over DS, because cooldown conflicts trump all of that. You get a higher DPS out of both abilities by prioritizing DS (or Consecration; I prefer DS). Of course, that's assuming 4pc T7, and I have to re-evaluate for 8-second Judgement (it's been a while), but the point is just that sometimes you want to prioritize a lower-DPS ability simply because you end up with a higher uptime on your higher-DPS abilities as a result.

Consecration's DoT aspect is ultimately irrelevant since its duration = its cooldown. It deals no damage during CD conflicts that involve it, since as long as its cooldown is up, it's not active. When you get right down to the numbers, every press of Consecration (in a perfect world, anyway) is going to result in a set amount of damage done -- just like Divine Storm, Crusader Strike, Judgement, and every other DPS ability.

There's other explanations. You could be assuming the Divine Storm +crit libram. DS and CS modifiers are calculated differently (some +x% are additive where others are multiplicative). DS could be assumed to hit multiple mobs. There might not be an account for CS now dealing RV damage.


All of those are accounted for. Bellator's spreadsheet is set up for gear modeling, so it was using my current Ret gear (I use Libram of Radiance). It was also updated yesterday with the latest PTR changes.

Also I'm not sure how ArP can be weighted higher than Haste. We gain 30% more effectiveness from haste, but only 25% more ArP in 3.1. Since currently Haste slightly edges out ArP, it's hard to imagine ArP being better.


As I understand it, melee+seal damage is a lower percentage of our overall damage in 3.1 (due to DS/CS/Exo buffs). So although the stat itself has become more powerful, its effect on our DPS has diminished. Definitely worth a closer look though.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:49 am

After reading more, the best rotation seems to be CS > Judgement > DS > Cons > Exo.

From http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-redcapes_ret_dps_calculator_new_edition_out_02_01_09_v2_3_a/p20/#post1165265
It beats Judge > CS > DS > Cons > Exo by ~100 DPS if his numbers are right.
Judge > DS > Cons > Exo > CS beaten by ~20 DPS.

Except you still don't prioritize CS over DS, because cooldown conflicts trump all of that. You get a higher DPS out of both abilities by prioritizing DS (or Consecration; I prefer DS). Of course, that's assuming 4pc T7, and I have to re-evaluate for 8-second Judgement (it's been a while), but the point is just that sometimes you want to prioritize a lower-DPS ability simply because you end up with a higher uptime on your higher-DPS abilities as a result.

It's been a while but, at least currently, CS > DS provides less conflicts (last I checked).

A bit interesting, if you do CS > Judge > DS > Cons > Exorcism your CS is available immediately since Exorcism is a spell GCD, making it 5.5s of GCD before you're out... and given lag it's probably more like 5.9-6.
Last edited by Elsie on Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:52 am

I was just about to come storming in here and tell you guys that you lose several Crusader Strikes when sticking to J > Cons > DS > Exo > CS, but it seems I don't have to.

CS > Judge > DS makes it's return!
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:55 am

Baelor wrote:I was just about to come storming in here and tell you guys that you lose several Crusader Strikes when sticking to J > Cons > DS > Exo > CS, but it seems I don't have to.

CS > Judge > DS makes it's return!

At least CS > Judge > Consecration [nothing] [repeat] is dead =)
(this is a reference to pre-wotlk, move along)

I could also see some merit in CS > Judge > DS as best for RV. When you figure CS in 6s, judge in 7/8s, if Divine Storm -> CS -> Judgement does not crit then your next move would be DS to recover RV.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:02 am

Elsie wrote:
Baelor wrote:I was just about to come storming in here and tell you guys that you lose several Crusader Strikes when sticking to J > Cons > DS > Exo > CS, but it seems I don't have to.

CS > Judge > DS makes it's return!

At least CS > Judge > Consecration [nothing] [repeat] is dead =)

(this is a reference to pre-wotlk, move along)

True that.

I spreadsheeted out four different rotations in Excel, extending them out for 30 seconds. Choices:
1. J > DS > CS > Exo > Cons
2. CS > J > DS > Exo > Cons
3. J > Cons > DS > Exo > CS
4. J > Cons > DS > CS > Exo

I assumed 8 second Judgement cooldown and 10 second Consecration cooldown. All of them yielded the same number of Exorcisms, Judgements, and Divine Storms during the 30 second model. The variance was Crusader Strikes and number of Consecration tics.

Rotation #s 1 & 2 came up with 5 Crusader Strikes and 22 Cons tics over the 30 seconds.
Rotation #3 came up with 3 Crusader Strikes and 29 Cons tics over the 30 seconds.
Rotation #4 came up with 4 Crusader Strikes and 28 Cons tics over the 30 seconds.

So, J-DS-CS or CS-J-DS reign supreme as for number of abilities you can cram into 30 seconds.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:03 am

Divine Storm and Consecration are, from a purely cooldown standpoint, completely interchangeable. They're both 10 second cooldowns, and thus will have the exact same effect on the rotation. CS > Judge > DS > Cons > Exo will play identically to CS > Judge > Cons > DS > Exo.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:05 am

Elsie wrote:It's been a while but, at least currently, CS > DS provides less conflicts (last I checked).


I mapped it out a while back (it's posted somewhere around here), and DS > CS with a 7 second judgement results in higher uptime on both abilities.

Judge > CS > DS means your CS is on a permanent 7 second cooldown.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:06 am

Lore wrote:
Elsie wrote:It's been a while but, at least currently, CS > DS provides less conflicts (last I checked).


I mapped it out a while back (it's posted somewhere around here), and DS > CS with a 7 second judgement results in higher uptime on both abilities.

Judge > CS > DS means your CS is on a permanent 7 second cooldown.

Unless you break rotation and CS > Judge sometimes.

I spreadsheeted out four different rotations in Excel, extending them out for 30 seconds. Choices:
1. J > DS > CS > Exo > Cons
2. CS > J > DS > Exo > Cons
3. J > Cons > DS > Exo > CS
4. J > Cons > DS > CS > Exo

Where is CS > J > DS > Cos > Exo?
Also 60-90 seconds would be a bit more realistic wouldn't it? Did you check after 30s if they return to original? There's a loop at some point.

We have to remember also that less of an ability doesn't mean less DPS.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:09 am

Elsie wrote:Unless you break rotation and CS > Judge sometimes.


But then you lose Judgement uptime -- and Judgement uptime is almost twice as important as CS uptime.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:11 am

Elsie wrote:
I spreadsheeted out four different rotations in Excel, extending them out for 30 seconds. Choices:
1. J > DS > CS > Exo > Cons
2. CS > J > DS > Exo > Cons
3. J > Cons > DS > Exo > CS
4. J > Cons > DS > CS > Exo

Where is CS > J > DS > Cos > Exo?
Also 60-90 seconds would be a bit more realistic wouldn't it? Did you check after 30s if they return to original? There's a loop at some point.

We have to remember also that less of an ability doesn't mean less DPS.

Graahhhhhhhhh fine I'll go model 60s and add Cons > Exo in.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:15 am

From glancing over the last couple pages in the Redcape thread on EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-redc ... 2_3_a/p20/

It looks like the way Exemplar is modeling ability uptimes on his spreadsheet is by mapping out the entire rotation until it repeats itself, and then taking the averages on the cooldowns. With the J > DS > Cons > Exo > CS system he gets:

Judge: 7.50
DS: 10.00
Cons: 10.01
Exo: 15.01
CS: 7.50

This seems to make sense, and probably indicates where the numbers are coming from. You really can't model the rotation over a specific timeframe, because each rotation will repeat itself differently.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:18 am

Lore wrote:This seems to make sense, and probably indicates where the numbers are coming from. You really can't model the rotation over a specific timeframe, because each rotation will repeat itself differently.

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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:20 am

If you haven't downloaded the Bellator spreadsheet yet, I recommend at least taking a look at it. It's fairly wide-open when you dig into the numbers past the first sheet (particularly the DPS calc sheet). I can't really find any holes in the calculation.
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:32 am

Baelor wrote:
Lore wrote:This seems to make sense, and probably indicates where the numbers are coming from. You really can't model the rotation over a specific timeframe, because each rotation will repeat itself differently.

Yup, I'm wasting my time. But I feel like I'm doing something worthwhile!

Really you could perfect it simply by finding the repetition then dividing by the time it takes to repeat. Just do some conditional formating =P or a solver.
But then you lose Judgement uptime -- and Judgement uptime is almost twice as important as CS uptime.

There's something near the first pages of one of the Mega Threads about this and, in a perfect world, you're right. But, given the world isn't perfect, it ends up as good.

It may also help that I have the Deadly Gladiator Libram. You need to pvp more Lore =)
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Re: [Ret] 3.1 Mana Consumption

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:59 am

I despise Arena PVP. Also, since J>DS>CS gave a higher uptime on CS, you'd get more libram benefit with it. Depends entirely on how we model "Break the rotation to use CS sometimes". Is it just CS>J>DS?
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