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Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:43 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Obviously, if you refuse to have your other classes respec to do the fight, then you're screwed. But that's your problem.


I'm not sure what the point of all those probabilities is, Skolor, because there are some flawed assumptions that make them pretty irrelevant.

Per this quote, my point was not to question your ability to do nCr, it was that expecting your 2 tankadins to flip their dual-spec to Ret and have your fury warrior tank a progression fight is NOT "my" or anyone's problem except Blizzard's, because it would be an insane design decision. Luckily their design goals specifically include allowing all 4 tank classes to progression tank raids now; while they may not have it right yet for bosses like Vezax or Auriaya, it's not on purpose.

-- And of course they've also explicitly mentioned that the ability to dual-spec is not at all considered when they're creating raid content. No switching between needing 8 high-caliber tanks and only 1 with a tight dps race from one boss to the next.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:06 pm

Unless you make all classes the same, you have to accept that, on hard modes, there are going to be differences between classes. As long as they're balanced between bosses, I don't see a problem with this. Designing instances around a skewed group makeup simply makes the fight pointless for anyone with a properly stacked raid.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby skolor » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:21 pm

Kelaan wrote:
skolor wrote:So, looking at the math here (Going by random samplings of 10 people, not a raid composition).... {low percentages}
....
All classes have a minimum amount of gear to perform in whatever capacity they are needed for. This likely means at least Quest blues for that spec, with a couple of epics/emblem pieces.


For entry level 10-man raiding, sure -- some dungeon stuff and some badge gear is sufficient. I do NOT think that is sufficient to "require" those people people to get in order to be able to hit higher levels of content (tier 8). Sure, many PUG naxx10 now, but some do not. Objectively speaking, it's a weaker design if it has mechanics which specifically exclude certain makeups, even if they are a very small minority. I do NOT think that pre-Naxx tanking gear will be sufficient for the average 10-man raid team to have a good time in Ulduar, which is basically what some off-spec people will have.


You seem to be thinking that if you tank 1 fight, you have to tank all of them. Yes, I definitely think that a guild who wants to progress enough, without recruiting others, can pull a tank in one of the "Failsafe" sets, something relatively easy to make/get, and just barely puts them over 540 defense and 25k health (buffed). It won't be easy, and one or both of the paladin tanks will need to whip out their offset healing gear (I can't imagine a situation with 2 paladin tanks in a guild, and neither of them has any healing gear) and help heal it. Its going to be a damn hard fight, but they can do it, and feel a hell of a lot better having achieved it that way afterwords.

As a comparison, apparently I'm the only competent circle kiter in the guild, so I'm always on adds for Gluth. In order to accomplish this, we usually have DK or Warrior stand up in front of Gluth, and time it so that he taunts and takes ~10 seconds of damage. With 3 healers its rough, and they mostly have to spam their biggest heals, but they get through and keep him alive for it. Our first try using this method our DK who was doing it only had 1 piece of defense gear, and took several crits. He died once from an unlucky string on our first try, but our second it worked just fine. Yeah, it was hard, and it took a little luck, but it was more than doable.

Kelaan wrote:As a more concrete example, I have nearly zero dps pieces, and the only healing ones I have are ones I got before our paladin healer got to 80 -- I'll not be a competitive healer or DPS player in Ulduar, at ALL. Tank loot distribution has been similar in our guild, though it's somewhat more concentrated as only a few DPS players are interested in tanking. We have TWO people (out of ~30) whose off-spec tanking gear is sufficient for tanking even Sartharion10 or Malygos. It's not at all been a goal for those people to get tanking gear, and thus they haven't pursued it. People spent their badges on primary role upgrades.


You certainly shouldn't be a competitive healer. You should, on the other hand, be able to put up numbers within a stones throw of your weakest healer.

Kelaan wrote:You're looking at this from the perspective of a fairly-progressed guild who has Naxxramas on farm. You (and I) have a pool of people who can re-gear, or may have tanking alts that they like playing also. However, there are still guilds who are NOT as progressed, who still struggle seriously with parts of Naxxramas (as evidenced by requests for advice about 4Horsemen, Heigan, and Patchwerk), and who do not have that pool of people with enough spare time to have multiple alts and enough badges/heroics to have multiple gear sets. The smaller the sample size (10 vs 25), the easier it is for some key factor like that to be missing.


Actually, I'm not looking at it as a fairly progressed guild. My guild just recently was able to kill KT 3 weeks ago, and still haven't done Sarth+1 or Malygos. Our main problem is filling about 4 spots consistently (They rotate too often for them to gear up very well, or learn the fights well enough). We still manage to clear most of the content out right now (expecting to kill Malygos this weekend, we've gotten to phase 3 several times now, just not fast enough to get the kill).



You're essentially arguing that if I have 2 tanks, 5 dps and 3 healers, you should be able to clear any 10 man normal content. I, and I believe at least a good chunk of the developers, think that you should be able to clear any 10 man normal content as long as you have 3 tanks, 4 healers and 4-6 dps. Why else would they be putting dual specs into the game, if not to allow for people to switch out like this for specific fights?

Not to mention, we seem to be arguing a moot point. There isn't a fight that Paladins can't do in Ulduar. As of right now, on the test realm, there is a fight paladins can't do which is being addressed and is largely do to class changes that they still haven't fully decided on. As it is, it looks like there will be 1, possibly 2 fights where paladins are at a disadvantage, and, if available, another tank should be used.

Rasmfrackn wrote:I'm not sure what the point of all those probabilities is, Skolor, because there are some flawed assumptions that make them pretty irrelevant.


To show how unlikely it is that the situation pops up where there is no alternative but to have a paladin tank it. The assumptions, while slightly flawed (mainly in simplifying the math), are fairly accurate. Unless, for some reason I can't fathom, there are 3x the mages there are druids, or some other massive imbalance in class numbers, the numbers are accurate within reason. I, for one, can't stand when people compare two situations that are over an order of magnitude different in probability of occurring, and say that they are the same.

I would go slightly farther than Panzer is, and say that balancing a raid around a skewed group only encourages making more and more skewed groups to take advantage of it.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:12 pm

skolor wrote:You seem to be thinking that if you tank 1 fight, you have to tank all of them. Yes, I definitely think that a guild who wants to progress enough, without recruiting others, can pull a tank in one of the "Failsafe" sets, something relatively easy to make/get, and just barely puts them over 540 defense and 25k health (buffed). It won't be easy, and one or both of the paladin tanks will need to whip out their offset healing gear (I can't imagine a situation with 2 paladin tanks in a guild, and neither of them has any healing gear) and help heal it. Its going to be a damn hard fight, but they can do it, and feel a hell of a lot better having achieved it that way afterwords.


I think my impression of many peoples' sentiments is that people don't feel accomplished when they win by having the dps DK tank it and the tankadins have to add extra healing because the DK isn't geared as well and soaks mana but has the mechanics required by the fight... they're frustrated by it. Especially the tankadins. Probably moreso than the DK, but I also know plenty of dps who play tank-capable classes who absolutely hate tanking and don't do it.

You're essentially arguing that if I have 2 tanks, 5 dps and 3 healers, you should be able to clear any 10 man normal content. I, and I believe at least a good chunk of the developers, think that you should be able to clear any 10 man normal content as long as you have 3 tanks, 4 healers and 4-6 dps. Why else would they be putting dual specs into the game, if not to allow for people to switch out like this for specific fights?

For all the other options it allows for outside of raiding, or at least across different nights of raiding, as they described when they announced it.

Not to mention, we seem to be arguing a moot point. There isn't a fight that Paladins can't do in Ulduar. As of right now, on the test realm, there is a fight paladins can't do which is being addressed and is largely do to class changes that they still haven't fully decided on. As it is, it looks like there will be 1, possibly 2 fights where paladins are at a disadvantage, and, if available, another tank should be used.

Definitely granted. Hopefully it stays fairly close.

Rasmfrackn wrote:I'm not sure what the point of all those probabilities is, Skolor, because there are some flawed assumptions that make them pretty irrelevant.


To show how unlikely it is that the situation pops up where there is no alternative but to have a paladin tank it. The assumptions, while slightly flawed (mainly in simplifying the math), are fairly accurate. Unless, for some reason I can't fathom, there are 3x the mages there are druids, or some other massive imbalance in class numbers, the numbers are accurate within reason. I, for one, can't stand when people compare two situations that are over an order of magnitude different in probability of occurring, and say that they are the same.

I would go slightly farther than Panzer is, and say that balancing a raid around a skewed group only encourages making more and more skewed groups to take advantage of it.

I wasn't really talking about population balance on a given realm. I was pointing out that there are people on a raid roster as tanks or as healers, and that's generally what they want to be doing when they're playing WoW. That's the component that I think needs to be weighted into your percentages. It's not a scenario of there's no tanking-capable class but a paladin available, it's a scenario of no tanking-oriented player but a paladin available. And that's a lot more likely.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:20 pm

I agree with you -- we're arguing minutae that don't really effect many actual people. I was looking at a perceived injustice, whereas you (and others) are pointing out that that affects a very small minority.

I don't think that if I tank one, I should tank them all -- but, if I am one of two people in my team who actually WANT to tank, I think that should be acceptable. When we started Razuvius, we had healing priests who never wanted to tank, having to learn to MC and tank -- and the bitching was extreme. We eventually recruited more priests, and ours eventually also learned anyways, but it wasn't something they actually enjoyed.

I agree with you on raid composition - with the exception of enrage-timer-bosses, having an extra healer is generally an advantage. (4 healers in a 10-man raid sounds excessive, though, but with dual spec and some gear I can see how they might want to make some encounters use that.) However, I'm skeptical that a naxx-10-ready gear set will be sufficient to tank bosses in Ulduar, without putting undue stress on your healers -- who, we've established, may be swapping to a tank role (if druids) or DPS (to replace a warrior or DK). Changing the raid comp from (2x tank, 3x healer, 5x dps) to (1-2x tank, 4x healer, 5x dps), when two of those healers and the tank are poorly geared compared to the normal tanks and healers, just seems like it's undue hardship.

I don't know how far in this boss is; is he the first or second? I know that if I were normally a DPS player, and had similar distributions of loot so far, my tanking gear set would be abysmal, and I suspect that even our rock-star healers might have a hard time. At the same time, I think you're right: we could swing it. It just sucks to force someone who doesn't want to tank (or heal) in to that role. (And by "force" I mean, "play this role or we will replace you for this fight with someone who can, or we fail".) On the bright side, it seems like tanking is fun enough that finding such a "I don't want to tank" person is rare enough that they're unlikely to be the sole population of your raid. ;)

Mountains out of molehills, I have made them. At the same time, I'm hoping that we are capable tanks for all encounters: Capable, even if not best-in-slot.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby skolor » Tue Mar 24, 2009 5:50 pm

On a similar note, I was discussing this with our raid leader, and he brought up our Loatheb (H) kill a couple of weeks ago. After wiping the first time due to too much raid damage for the healers to keep up with (It took 6 minutes before we wiped with him at 60k health). After yelling at the dps to stop messing with the spores and just concentrate on dpsing, we'd have the spores taken care of for them, we started again. Turns out one of the mages didn't get it, and spent the entire fight running around the circle killing the spores and not doing much DPS. Thanks to this, I ended up getting hit by the first spore, and only had 100k threat. After a quick discussion, it was decided I would keep tanking him, because I have significantly better gear than the other tanks, and we wanted to keep things as easy as possible for the healers. Since I wasn't gaining any threat, we had the warriors keep up gaining as much threat as possible. There was an unfortunate mistake, a mage passed my threat first and got one shot. Other than that, the warrior would pull for a second, then I would taunt off, and we'd have another 10% to go and repeat. We made it through the fight without any other problems (except for kicking the mage at 100k, and having to deal with one of his guildmates being a little pissy about it).

I think if you were planning for this it should be doable the same way. By having a tank-capable class do the dirty, threat gaining work, and simply using taunt whenever they pull. Preferably a DK/Warrior would simply switch into Frost aura/defensive stance and DPS as normal (Not sure about the warrior thing. It should work fine with a DK though). As long as the DK is competitive in threat, they should be the only ones pulling aggro off you, letting you then taunt off of them. Now, its going to be pretty nasty. I figure the best way to do it is to gain a quick lead in threat, spending ~2k mana to gain ~40k threat (Rough estimates). That should leave you with ~5k mana, enough for a little over 5 minutes of taunting on CD. Alternative between our two taunts, and by the time the DK has 150k things should be fairly smooth, letting the taunts get off CD before having to re-taunt.

Things would be hairy for the first minute or so, but because taunt holds the mob on you for 3 seconds, and you'll be casting every 4 seconds, the DK should only be taking a healable amount of damage. Its definitely a gimick-y method of doing it with a paladin tank, and its going to be fixed so that the tank should be able gain threat on their own, but it was something I thought was worth sharing. It seems on the level of the no-priest method of doing Razsuvius (H), maybe a little lower since it takes 2 instead of 3 people doing something odd.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Conaan! » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:27 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Unless you make all classes the same, you have to accept that, on hard modes, there are going to be differences between classes. As long as they're balanced between bosses, I don't see a problem with this. Designing instances around a skewed group makeup simply makes the fight pointless for anyone with a properly stacked raid.



and here you misunderstand what were talking about



this ISNT hard mode, this is NORMAL, the EASIEST mode, weve already established its fine for one tank to be better at tanking a boss during hard mode, but having a fight simply untankable without extremely high costs is absurd, hard mode or not
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Dantriges » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:33 pm

I hope the issue with SAon General Vezax gets fixed and that Auriaya´s effect is a horror one, affecting everyone equally.

It´s ok that there are fights disadvantaging the paladin, if it´s only a small disadvantage. I wonder where are the meaningful fights disadvantaging the other tanks. Besides Loatheb, I know no encounter where we are best tank for the job and he´s a sad joke.

And I don´t know why there is such a big discussion about how many guilds would go into Ulduar with two paladin tanks. If a guild has two paladin tanks, they should be able t go there wit two of them. There is no problem with taking two other tanks of the same class, it shouldn´t be a problem using two paladins.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby nicolax » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:47 am

i wouldn't worry if i were you. I have tested Auriaya and General Vezax (when sa was not working) and i'm sure they will fix any issues.

For Auriaya, last time i was on PTR, the horrifying screech was not interruptible. I think we tried to break the effect with iceblock, trinket, divine shield..., but it didn't work. The only solution may be to LoS it, if you are dps or healer. but even with adds and the boss hitting on you, that effect is not very dangerous and we didn't die because of it.

Last thing (but it depends on your guild), whatever is said, every single fight is tankable by a tankadin and i have always found that to bother about which class is the best is irrelevant (except sarth3d, but i could have done it, Worldie did it for his guild). The player is more important than the class, and just as a note, i main-tanked all progression fights in TBC (hello nightbane, vashj, kael'thas, archi, illidan, kalec-brut pre-3.0 and many non end-bosses) and we progressed at the same speed of other guilds using a warrior, and raiding the same number of hours. All it takes is knowledge, preparation, good players and tactics.

Tanking nowadays is quite boring and for sure not as challenging as what it was, all tanks are roughly equals and we have cooldowns to use. The design of boss encounters is a lot more interesting though, because you will see that in ulduar, rotating tanks on a boss is needed (razorscale, mimiron and probably others) and managing adds tanking is also interesting (freya,thorim,auriaya -> catching mobs at the pull without dying on top of aggroing the boss, killing adds at the same time at Freya, getting all mobs on you on thorim's arena, p2...). It's not anymore the dumb morogrim fight design.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Veilan » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:31 am

I can only say... food is eaten half as hot as it is cooked. Let's wait and see, and not get out panties in a tussle before we tanked the boss in the final version of live, eh.

Secondly, philosophically, I passionately disagree with Blizzard's policy, which became very prominent in WotlK, that basically everyone can do anything. I want different styles and flavours for each character class. I dislike that mana is the blue rage now, I dislike dual specs, I dislike the tremendous boon hybrids get, I dislike the notion that everyone must function equally well in any situation. It's not fun, it's making the same gruel out of everything. I realise it's a pain to balance else, and I also realise that a big majority disagrees - those who only see what someone else can do better than them, and then go on to whine how that class is overpowered. And I fully realise that that majority is the biggest slice of paying customers.

Still... I don't like it.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:46 pm

skolor wrote:I think if you were planning for this it should be doable the same way. By having a tank-capable class do the dirty, threat gaining work, and simply using taunt whenever they pull. Preferably a DK/Warrior would simply switch into Frost aura/defensive stance and DPS as normal (Not sure about the warrior thing. It should work fine with a DK though). As long as the DK is competitive in threat, they should be the only ones pulling aggro off you, letting you then taunt off of them. Now, its going to be pretty nasty. I figure the best way to do it is to gain a quick lead in threat, spending ~2k mana to gain ~40k threat (Rough estimates). That should leave you with ~5k mana, enough for a little over 5 minutes of taunting on CD. Alternative between our two taunts, and by the time the DK has 150k things should be fairly smooth, letting the taunts get off CD before having to re-taunt.

Things would be hairy for the first minute or so, but because taunt holds the mob on you for 3 seconds, and you'll be casting every 4 seconds, the DK should only be taking a healable amount of damage. Its definitely a gimick-y method of doing it with a paladin tank, and its going to be fixed so that the tank should be able gain threat on their own, but it was something I thought was worth sharing. It seems on the level of the no-priest method of doing Razsuvius (H), maybe a little lower since it takes 2 instead of 3 people doing something odd.


That would be funky, but certainly interesting. We did basically the same thing last night when the dps killed the very first spore on top of the MT.

But as for the first hairy minute... has anyone experienced the new DRs on taunt? Needing to space taunts 15s apart would be the main stumbling block on this one. You'd need to taunt relatively frequently early on with small 10% chunks.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Panzerdin » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:31 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:Unless you make all classes the same, you have to accept that, on hard modes, there are going to be differences between classes. As long as they're balanced between bosses, I don't see a problem with this. Designing instances around a skewed group makeup simply makes the fight pointless for anyone with a properly stacked raid.



and here you misunderstand what were talking about



this ISNT hard mode, this is NORMAL, the EASIEST mode, weve already established its fine for one tank to be better at tanking a boss during hard mode, but having a fight simply untankable without extremely high costs is absurd, hard mode or not


I agree that it shouldn't be untankable. But I think that the odd class shouldn't necessarily be able to to preserve an important mechanic (not that I can think of one which should actually require this).
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby PsiVen » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:52 am

To clarify the bit about dual spec, this issue has been very specifically addressed by Blizzard. I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure you can find it on some tracker from a couple months ago. According to Daelo, the raid design team's position on the dual spec feature is that it doesn't exist. There are the same implications in Ulduar for the inconvenience caused by having people switch roles as anywhere else.

Is it possible that some hard mode will require 2.5 - 3 tanks? Sure, Sarth3d10 is pretty damn hard if you don't have at least a plate DPS doing add patrol. Will another hard mode require 1 tank? Also possible, and likely given what we've seen of Hodir alone. 4 healers? Not so likely, but it is quite clear that most encounters will be looking for 3 and some will demand dropping down to 2. All of this is what we've come to expect from current content.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Vanifae » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:15 am

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&sid=1#14

Source for what you are saying Psi-Ven.

Ghostcrawler wrote:This is an incorrect assumption.

Our design direction is not to change our designs at all as a result of this change. We are going to design instances and talent trees while pretending this feature does not exist.

Examples of things we will NOT do:

1) Have a fight that requires 8 tanks, because you know, half the raid can change specs.
2) Have a fight that requires some obscure talent, because surely someone can afford to swap into it.
3) Let Arms be the PvP tree and Fury be the PvE tree, because warriors can just switch out.
4) Have a buff spec with low dps and a damage spec with high dps, and expect players to buff then swap specs.

While realistically we predict almost every high level player will use a dual-spec, we aren't assuming you have access to it. Furthemore, all the feature does is make it easier for you to do something you could already do, which is hearth back, respec, and get summoned back.
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Re: Ulduar and the Paladin Tank

Postby Splug » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:51 pm

Regarding paladins being the only ones inconvenienced by a fear mechanic: lichborne will no longer be standard in death knight tanking builds as of 3.1 (except possibly frost). It also has a 3 minute cooldown, putting it in the same ball park as divine shield/cancelaura. In this particular case, the tooltip indicates the ability is a terror effect anyway.

Spiritual attunement sounds like it's just bugged. The tooltip on the effect indicates it's intended to at least partially work. If it makes you feel better, roughly 60-70% of my death knight's damage comes from rune strike or autoattack, and warrior/druids will be in the same ballpark due to losing heroic strikes, mauls, or autoattacks for rage generation. Also, isn't there some cloud you can stand in that reduces the mana cost of all spells by 70% (not the saronite vapors... the leftovers from the shadowblast)? The General isn't being tested on the US ptr's, so I'm not sure how long that lasted. But if tanking resources really are a big issue in the encounter, it seems like paladins are also the only class capable of reducing their resource costs to compensante.

Thus, it seems like the whole base for the argument is fairly moot. While it's good to keep an eye out, it sounds like neither of those encounters function the way Honorshammer originally had interpreted them.

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