How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

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Postby Vesper » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:53 pm

Do you want the honest answers or the earnest "I am an officer, truly" answers?

Loot and justice for all, and all members will play magnificently and invest in their class equally. Also, we've vowed to have no more than say, 6 DKs per raid. And the warlocks won't seed on incoming trash pulls.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Petrus » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:50 pm

Marsha wrote:How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?


Same as we do now. We're all declaring a second spec if we're hybrid classes (generally 'pure' dps classes get secondary priority on offset tier pieces and such so our hybrids can have tiered offsets) and we'll have a main spec and an offspec.

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?


Not really any discussion because I think we all know how it's going to go. A lot of us have secondary specs as it is.

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?


Best example would be the fact that I have a full 25-man holy offset.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?


This I'm not sure of. We only have one raiding shadowpriest and perhaps we'll have more (we have 6 holy or disc priests right now) so that will affect makeup.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?


We already do this. If it doesn't get taken by someone for their main spec, it will go to off spec.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?


It kind of takes care of itself because we only have one main spec each.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?


Yes, and I can say this with great confidence. Our DPS warriors are pretty good tanks and I know some of our Holy or Ret paladins are pretty damn good tanks, while I do pretty well as a healer and our DK tank has quite a DPS set.

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?


I don't think so. I'm going to be Prot/Holy with dual-spec.

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?


Straight clear. Achievements later but we'll try for Hard Modes early on to unlock Algalon the raid destroyer.

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?


Yes. We'll always do 10man naxx for badges for gems at least. Probably will do Naxx and Sarth25 for a while because of titles/drakes and good loots from KT and Sapph. Wouldn't be surprised if we dropped Malygos entirely at some point once all the people have the gear from it.
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Postby ulushnar » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:17 am

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?


No more than normal. Pretty much everyone in my guild has been collecting pieces for one or two "offspecs" once no-one wants it for a main spec.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?


About the same, but it'll be easier on those who do swap. Everyone I recruit is recruited with a role in mind, be it tank, healer, ranged DPS or Melee DPS. That said, sometimes our shadow Priest helps out when we're short of healers, or sometimes our Tanks spec DPS for Malygos.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?


We have that already. We track how many times you lose a roll on a main-spec item and that gives you priority on future drops. Off spec stuff is FFA only if no main-spec wants.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?


I don't know what you mean here. An upgrade's an upgrade and I trust my guildmates not to be dicks about it.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?


Some of them I would trust in whatever spec they choose to come in.

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?


Maybe in a 25-man guild. In a 10-man, the ability of a DPS to switch to healing/tanking or a tank to switch to DPS for a night is too valuable to waste dual speccing on having two specs that are 90% similar.

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?


We'll be doing clears at first to get used to the place then phasing in more achievements/hard modes as time goes on.

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?


We'll probably farm it with alts and mains who just have to have every last drop/achievement, but it won't be the main thrust of what we do.
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Postby cakeftw » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:27 am

i believe ny guild is doing it in "whichever role you raid as most counts as main spec, the other is your offspec"
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Postby Calanas » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:39 am

In the next few weeks I will be asking all hybrids to submit thier planned "main" and "second" spec. These will not be changable for a 3 week period. Rolls go "main" spec then "second" spec regardless of the role we need you for any given night.

So once you make the decison you can't switch them for 3 weeks. This allows us to ask the ret pallies to go holy for a run while allowing them to roll on thier desired gear.
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Postby Aldonza » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:55 am

It's simple in our guild.

1 ) You have one main character with a main spec.
2 ) All loot is divided by DKP, with mains and main specs having priority on items.

Anything not claimed by mains will then be offered to offspecs.

As far as Dual Specs go, we primarily have Main / PvP specs being done in my guild. A few are going Main / PvE offspec. If someone goes Main Spec / Slightly different talented Main spec, then they'd still be getting main spec loot. (A warrior taking two prot specs for tanking).
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Postby Turumbar » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:22 am

We have 11 people in my guild, normally we can get 10 of us on for a raid, occasionally we resort to PuG's for a spot or 2.

Dual spec will be a boon so we can fill the important slots in guild (Tanks/Heals) and only have to PuG DPS.

I'm hopefull that we can also utilize Dual Spec to allow some of our people a chance to do something else for a change.

As for gear, none of us are really stuck on gear, so I don't forsee any problems with gear going to who can use it.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Markoh » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:59 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?
We always do invites based upon the best raid set up for a fight/ and for the type of raid we have with the people on. Dual specs aren't going to change how we set up for a fight, but rather the number of ppl at different posistions that we have, of course once a fight b/c trivial on hard mode we start slacking and getting ppl in that need stuff from it.

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?

We have about 5-6 ppl that will be our "dual spec ppl". About 4 of us are people that switched specs in the expansion so they know we can play the others, and 2 of them are recruits we got which were specified to play both. Basically I'll use myself as an example, I was full time holy and went prot when needed in bc. Now I'm full time prot but since we have only one paladin healer if we ever need one I can switch if needed.

We changed our loot system with wotlk b/c there were so many items in naxx that our dkp system had ppl at like -100 after the first raid. So we switched to a system that was a loot council for lower level gear, a very lienent council basically as long as its not best in slot everyone rolls for it and if multiple best in slot that group of ppl roll for it, and we use dkp for top tier items (kt/sarth+drakes loot, and malygos). It actually is a very nice system b/c it eleminates people passing slight upgrades in the name of dkp. The talk was for the yogg/algagon and hard mode loot will be dkp, and all else is the semi loot council system.

This pertains to our off specs b/c we have off-spec priority, as in if no main spec needs it it goes to us automatically before other members off-specs. Right now we have myself the prot/holy pally, a prot/dps war, a tank/dps dk, feral/resto druid, ele/resto shaman, and shadow/holy priest. That's alot of tanks but the feral and I are the ones that are usually tank (along with the our full time prot warrior) and the other 2 are just back ups if we can't make it/ want to sit.

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?

We have been getting off-spec priority since we started; basically we have always been dual spec just not we don't have to hearth and respec/reglyph when needed.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?

Really this depends on what is needed for what fights, we don't just swap for the hell of it and ussually have reasons fight requirement wise.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?

Since we basically roll off non top tier loot we have always done main > off.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?

I'm not really sure what you mean. The way we do loot is for the greatest good of the raid, so if the designated off-spec ppl get twice the amount as a normal person it's because they play both specs a decent amount. It's also not like ulduar isn't going to be farmed constantly for the couple months.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?

Ya, I would say most of are players are incredibly competent players, and to be completely honest this game isn't very hard so if your good with one class/spec it will translate easily. The most important factors are quick thinking, knowledge of your class/the fight, and situational awareness. There are like 1-2 ppl I may have my doubts about, but for the most part I have complete faith in our members (not going to include trials in this) being able to do this.

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?

To be honest if I wasn't needed to heal I would do this. Mainly because you can't ever be completely sure what buffs are being brought. For example some times you might need heart of the crusader and sometimes its just a waste.

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?

Definitely going for achievements. Our sever has alot of those "hardcore guilds" (ej, aurora, serious casual, juggernaut II, and a new horde reroll from a top alliance guild not sure what there name was). Because of this we have no chance at encounter firsts b/c we are more casual in the sense that we hard cap the amount of time we raid, so they will probally play on patch day until they get the thing down. Also hard content is fun, I had more fun wiping 150 times in 2 days working on sarth 10+3 than I did doing anything else in current content.

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?

As soon as 3.1 comes out we are stopping current content. Let's put it like this if blizz would give us a release date we would have a countdown with a party planned.
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Re:

Postby ulrichter » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:15 am

Digren wrote:Several people mention that DKP solves these problems, but I don't see how.

Some classes have more overlap between gear for their specs that others. Paladins have virtually no overlap between gear worn in holy, protection, or ret. To collect two viable sets of gear, paladins need two complete sets of gear. The same can't be said for all other classes, most notably the non-hybrid classes (though of course some exceptions do exist for specific stats better in one spec than another). That seems like an inequity that DKP can't solve.

Then, there's the problem with charging people for off-spec gear if the raid expects to require an off spec. It makes sense to have a protection paladin (or a feral druid or a boomkin or a shadow priest) dual-spec holy/restoration for fights were another healer could help more than another whatever. But if those people are expected to lose DKP (that they could have saved for their primary spec gear), what incentive do they have to bother with a second spec at all? I guess I don't buy the most logical answer ("for the good of the raid") because, for the good of the raid, why isn't off-spec gear simply free?


This is the biggest issue - loot distribution. Any guild operating a DKP type system will need some sort of radical change or hybrids just wont have the incentive to build decent dual spec equipment. Pure builds like rogues/warlocks/mages/hunters will always run a surplus as there's no incentive for them to build a dual pve equipement spec. Paladins on the other hand (who share tier pieces with Warlocks) who do (or have in my case) invest in dual specs will have much lower standings in the DKP stakes. You may even see some perfectly good dual spec loot getting sharded as people horde DKP for teir pieces. I also suspect that most priest are DKP horders just like Warlocks.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:53 am

Marsha wrote:Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?


Our members have been discussing it constantly :D We've basically mapped out who will be taking what roles for their 2nd spec (based on what they are good at doing, not what the guild officers dictate)

Marsha wrote:Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?


We only have ~30 raiders, so everyone's main sets have long been filled with BiS items; subsequently everyone has picked up respectable off sets for their dual spec choices.

Marsha wrote:Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?


Less class swapping, more role swapping. We basically have 200% coverage for all our needs in either main specs or dual specs (e.g., 4 main raid tanks with a tank spec as their primary, but also 4 main spec DPSers/healers with a good set of tank gear and a tanking 2nd spec). This way we can cover and attendance deficiencies or strange min-maxing requirements. This also allows up to bring players based on their skill instead of their role, since we have the flexibility to shuffle roles around easily now.

Marsha wrote:Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?

Marsha wrote:How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?


We use a unique DKP system that is awesome for handling loot distribution in confusing situations. All drops are auctioned in a single-bid, no limit, no reserve silent auction and the winner's DKP spent on that drop is equally divided among all the members of the raid. This allows people to buy whatever they want for whatever spec they want, and keeps interest in progression/hard dungeons high (since better loot generally means more DKP spent). It also lets people accumulate off spec gear quickly since low gear sell prices are much easier to stomach than minimum bids for off spec gear.

Marsha wrote:Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?


Generally speaking we don't like to recruit one-dimensional players, so most everyone can raid effectively as 2 or more specs (and has already at some point in 3.0) if their class allows multiple viable raiding options.

Marsha wrote:I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?


No, versatility is more valuable imo.

Marsha wrote:Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?


We will progress as follows
1) full clear easy modes, working on achievements as time allows
2) Thorim, Freya, Mmiron, and Hodir hard modes for the seals
3) Algalon/Yogg-Saron hard modes
4) finish the rest of the hard modes
5) finish the rest of the achievements

Marsha wrote:Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?


Probably 10 minutes of Sarth + 3D every week just to farm drakes. Otherwise it'll probably be a Naxx/Maly/OS run on an off night for alts and friends/family.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Sinnegorth » Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:12 pm

Interesting questions about loot Marsha since SC has been around for so long. Do you guys not use DKP of some sort?

My semi-casual guild keeps it pretty simple:
Each night all raiders get two need rolls: 1 tier 1 non-tier
The loot master puts items up for roll three times:
1st is for Need Roll main spec.
2nd is for Greed roll main spec (To insure DPS classes/non-hybrids get gear before an off spec does.)
3rd is for Greed roll off spec.
While their are tweaks, this system has worked swimmingly for us for two years now. Granted we only raid twice a week, but the frequency doesn't matter as the number of rolls resets each night.
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