The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

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Re:

Postby Nich » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:50 am

Knaughty wrote:Divinity is obviously optional: The other three tanks have no equivalent.

I'm not sure about that.

Improved blood presence gives a blood DK 4% extra healing, and when they pop vampiric blood that's an 35% extra healing.

Bears can also glyph for frenzied regen to give an extra 20% from heals taken.
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Re: Re:

Postby Belzebina » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:58 am

Allo!

Nich wrote:Improved blood presence gives a blood DK 4% extra healing

No, in Frost and Unholy Presence you RETAIN 4% healing from Blood Presence AND healing donde to you is increased in 10% in Blood Presence.

Isn't the same, 4% damage done is converted to healing that increase healing done to you in 4%.

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Re:

Postby Torquemada » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:17 am

Panzerdin wrote:Free hint guys: If I tell you something, I'm generally not lying. Divinity is a waste of 5 talent points.


Divinity isn't that great, true. However, from what others are saying on this forum, 2/3 Crusade and 3/5 Conviction beats out SotP. Other than that and your point in Divine Sacrifice(I have been putting 1 point in Divinity because I had nowhere else to put it and have never specced for DG) your proposed build and what I'm planning are the same.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:18 am

There's really no point in arguing whether or not Divinity is better than threat talents. Divinity isn't a threat talent. Do you need threat? Or would you rather have heals on you be a little more effective? It's your choice, but we have threat versus survivability debates all the time. It's just a matter of how much survivability for how much threat, and how much of what you need.

I'm not going to make any sweeping statements until we see the final trees, but I'll probably pick up Divinity. Why? Well, I haven't needed more threat yet, so I may as well pick up 5% more incoming heals.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby majiben » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:48 am

The issue opponents of Divinity have is its chance of increasing survival approaches 0 in the current healing enviroment and will get worse as hits get harder. Now these are made up numbers but would you spend 5 talent points to get 10 dodge rating? Well at lot of people feel that it's about as useful for reducing the chances of death. No one has yet to produce a WWS report where divinity would have saved them definitively in a normal raid situation.
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Re:

Postby Conaan! » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:05 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Free hint guys: If I tell you something, I'm generally not lying. Divinity is a waste of 5 talent points.


you told them to go SotP instead of conviction/crusade, yeah, its wrong

the basic basic talent spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.comhttp://ta ... rsion=9704

12 points left

what most are going for
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9704

things to move around in this spec:
imp might 1/2, you could change this to benediction or imp judge, depends on your playstyle, personally i prefer imp might, even though i dont buff it much
1/2 SA, can take one point out of crusade to put into SA if you find you have mana problems
2/2 PoJ, if you have tuskarr's and are fine with tuskarr's, then you can move 2/2 PoJ to top off conviction
Glyph of hammer of the righteous, mostly just for trash fun, not really important too much

really really situationally, you may spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9704

you can move one point out of anything in prot to put into imp judge to keep 969, but as this is a situational "survive that damn thing kthnxbai" spec, threat isnt really major issue, this spec really shouldnt be used except for that niche fight once in a while
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby Dark Severance » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:11 pm

• Increasing healing received isn't part of the tank's job spec. Avoiding death and holding threat are. Divinity is obviously optional: The other three tanks have no equivalent.
I am generally of the belief that if something is mitigation take it and this isn't mitigation.

HOWEVER, I would like to ask how many people have raided Uldaar on PTR with and without this? I've done testing on PTR but haven't done any raiding, more so just looking at UI changes for other reasons. But honestly in a current fight like say Patchwerk 25-Man, this isn't a bad talent. Sure it doesn't provide mitigation, however it is kind of the opposite of Block Value. Back in the day when people said 800 damage from a 10k hit really doesn't mean anything but it adds up. The same is said for 5%+ healing + 6% healing from Devotion or Treekin, which means when I'm taking 25k damage, the healers are healing back 1500-2000+ extra healing combined. Makes it easier to stay on top.

We don't have issues for threat. So it isn't these points can go into something more useful. And we aren't about damage, although it'll be nice to do more damage, we are a tank. It is back to the "Do I take Kings or don't type arguments" so it will be a personal preference depending on your raiding groups. Do you have over geared healers who are never OOM in fights, then probably won't need it. If you do this will help make their healing more efficient since most heals go to the tank.

I'm more interested to know... what does Uldaar as encounters hold in store compared to what we've seen that has made these changes necessary. From what I've heard so far everything we've faced has been a walk in the park but Uldaar isn't a park.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby majiben » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:24 pm

Dark Severance wrote: Do you have over geared healers who are never OOM in fights, then probably won't need it. If you do this will help make their healing more efficient since most heals go to the tank.
This is a fallacy that keeps getting perpetuated in favor of Divinity. 5% more healing does not allow healers to modulate their healing output enough to let them preserve more mana. With the death of downranking the ability to control mana usage and healing outout finely has been lost. There is a huge amount of talk by healers not wanting/needing additonal spell power past what they naturally get. Most healers are looking to speed up their heals (more likely to land when the tank needs them) and raise regen to counteract the increased haste.

More throughput will not become desirable unless blizzard grows fond of Mortal strike mechanics for bosses so that healers HPS doesn't far outstrip boss dps. They could alternatively greatly raise tank Hp so that large chunks could be removed safetly from the tanks without it being spikey.
Last edited by majiben on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Re:

Postby Panzerdin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:19 pm

Conaan! wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:Free hint guys: If I tell you something, I'm generally not lying. Divinity is a waste of 5 talent points.


you told them to go SotP instead of conviction/crusade, yeah, its wrong

the basic basic talent spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.comhttp://ta ... rsion=9704

12 points left

what most are going for
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9704

things to move around in this spec:
imp might 1/2, you could change this to benediction or imp judge, depends on your playstyle, personally i prefer imp might, even though i dont buff it much
1/2 SA, can take one point out of crusade to put into SA if you find you have mana problems
2/2 PoJ, if you have tuskarr's and are fine with tuskarr's, then you can move 2/2 PoJ to top off conviction
Glyph of hammer of the righteous, mostly just for trash fun, not really important too much

really really situationally, you may spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9704

you can move one point out of anything in prot to put into imp judge to keep 969, but as this is a situational "survive that damn thing kthnxbai" spec, threat isnt really major issue, this spec really shouldnt be used except for that niche fight once in a while


I was on autopilot. This is not the point. What replaces Divinity is not the point. The point is that divinity is crap.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby Venoseth » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:16 pm

Soooooo....TL;DR:

Divinity: Not useless, but is worse than Avoidance/EH/Mitigation for surviving damage, especially because of the healer's current play-style (due to the way WotLK panned out for healers).

Also, don't forget that a dead boss isn't one that can kill you, and on all fights that have a %HP enrage, it's the ammount of time you have to survive during their last 5-30% HP, and DPS helps with that. A dead boss isn't one that can kill you, and then the whole raid.

More DPS = less time needing to be kept alive + threat = not bad.

Personally, I'll be rolling with this spec. The 2/2 in Imp. HoJ is going into Divine guardian if they put it below Divine Sacrifice, or into 2/5 Divinity if that space is left open. ^^
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby Dark Severance » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:41 pm

Majiben wrote:This is a fallacy that keeps getting perpetuated in favor of Divinity. 5% more healing does not allow healers to modulate their healing outout enough to let them preserve more mana. With the death of downranking the ability to control mana usage and healing outout finely has been lost. There is a huge amount of talk by healers not wanting/needing additonal spell power pst what they naturally get. Most healers are looking to speed up their heals (more likely to land when the tank needs them) and raise regen to counteract the increased haste.

More throughput will not become desirable unless blizzard grows fond of Mortal strike mechanics for bosses so that healers HPS doesn't far outstrip boss dps. They could alternatively greatly raise tank Hp so that large chunks could be removed safetly from the tanks without it being spikey.
Blizzard won't raise tank HPs though, at least to a point that large chunks of damage won't make it spikey. It puts less reliance on actual avoidance gear and more onto stacking Hitpoints to overcome being under geared.

I didn't say it allowed them to modulate healing. It makes their healing more effective, which means they are healing you for more and having to heal for less, which in turn preserves mana. I'm still skeptical with the changes to mana regen tht is going to change quite a few gearing methods currently in use since it removes the reliance on Spirit for regen. Supposedly its supposed to be rolled back into other talents/skills and you aren't supposed to know a difference. However on my Holy Priest and my Resto Druid I do notice a big difference. My Paladin doesn't have an efficient healing set to really test how healing/regen is effected while in combat.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby majiben » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:49 pm

They don't heal less often though. Healing today is not reactive. If you healers aren't using their GCDs then they're putting the tank at risk. Healers don't get to take breaks without putting the tank at risk. This talent doesn't let them take breaks.

As far as highger HP, there are more ways than one to raise hp. More stamina on tank gear is one thing, another is miodifiers. Encounters can be designed to artifically raise tank hp. Think Red beam on netherspite.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby Deet » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:01 pm

I don't really think healing for 5% more would in any way change the amount of mana they would have to use to keep the tank alive. There's simply not enough benefit from a 5% increase that allows a healer to more efficiently heal you. Tank healing is also really rigid and simply involves often significant overhealing. But let's just assume that they can effectively manage the healing to the point where a percentage increase in healing does save them casts or allows them to use cheaper spells. How far do you really think 5% can take them? On a 10k heal, thats 500. Who is saving a cast or changing play style from that?
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby Panzerdin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:04 pm

Majiben wrote:They don't heal less often though. Healing today is not reactive. If you healers aren't using their GCDs then they're putting the tank at risk. Healers don't get to take breaks without putting the tank at risk. This talent doesn't let them take breaks.

As far as highger HP, there are more ways than one to raise hp. More stamina on tank gear is one thing, another is miodifiers. Encounters can be designed to artifically raise tank hp. Think Red beam on netherspite.


Actually, Priests who are healing tanks often have a lot of spare GCDs, and are getting a huge drop in skill requirement (since it's now optimal to just spam HG all day long, with perhaps the odd shield).

And Penance, now I come to think about it. But that isn't the point.
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Re: The Basic Talent Spec at 3.1?

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:57 pm

Majiben wrote:The issue opponents of Divinity have is its chance of increasing survival approaches 0 in the current healing enviroment and will get worse as hits get harder. Now these are made up numbers but would you spend 5 talent points to get 10 dodge rating? Well at lot of people feel that it's about as useful for reducing the chances of death. No one has yet to produce a WWS report where divinity would have saved them definitively in a normal raid situation.


If I didn't need threat, then yes, I'd put 5 talent points in to get 10 dodge rating. Imp Devo Aura is another 600 or so armor, but I still spec into it. How much does it decrease my damage taken? It also doesn't work well in our current healing environment (the burst is magic). Ya know, I bet it wouldn't be too tough to make an addon that could track "Divinity saves." You'd just have to see what the "overkill" on the tank's killing blow is and see if that would be less than an increase in healing by 5% to all heals since the tank was at full health, right?

Too bad I don't know Lua. That seems like something that could be done fairly easily.

EDIT: To be more clear, that addon would be for someone who doesn't have Divinity (like on Live) to see if he could have been saved.
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