Redoubt vs. Crusade

[Relamun]

I know that once 3.1 comes this won't really matter, but for the time being....

When I started going through Naxx I was MTing all the fights as I was the better geared, more experienced tank. Now that the DK I run with has gotten geared up and gotten a good bit of experience, I'm looking at putting myself in the OT role, and potentially using this spec.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAduMtxIRGovs00bc

I'm looking for any opinions and/or math regarding this idea. My gut feeling is that I'll be better off dropping Redoubt for Crusade as I'll be DPSing on some of the fights without need for a second tank. (also we occasionally run with DPS that are fully geared for 25s when we are only running 10s, and 1 or 2 of them have to hold back a little bit on top of me tossing HoSalv on them)

[majiben]

If you're looking for dps why would you give up Redoubt?

[Relamun]

Well I'm hoping that someone here could possibly direct me to some math on how much Redoubt increases dps. I'm planning on taking some combat logs using my normal spec and the spec I'm thinking about.

[theckhd]

It increases your Block Value by 30%, which is a noticeable DPS increase on ShoR.

You could move 3 of the points in Benediction into Conviction for added DPS, though I suspect you chose the mana reduction specifically because you'd be off-tanking.

I'm not 100% sure, but you might get better mileage out of 5/5 SotP and 3/3 Redoubt than 3/3 Crusade (and wasting a lot of points to get there).

I haven't run the numbers thoroughly, but here's a quick check:
Each point in Crusade is roughly 31 DPS.

This graph suggests that 15.4 block value (10/0.65) gives you around 7 or 8 DPS. Let's estimate 7.5 DPS for 15 BV, so that each point of BV is 1/2 a DPS to make the math easy.

That means that for Redoubt to give you a 93 DPS increase, you'd need it to be giving you 186 Block Value, which would require a base BV of 620, or a net value (after redoubt) of 800ish. For comparison, most tanks run with anywhere between 1k-2k BV (after Redoubt) nowadays.

So in general, 3/3 redoubt contributes more DPS than 3/3 Crusade, so it isn't worth Dropping Redoubt to get there.

If you're really determined, and you're absolutely certain you'll be in an OT-only role, you could drop JotJ and one point in Ardent Defender. If another tank is already putting up their version of the JotJ debuff, it's redundant and those 2 points aren't granting you anything. You'll get hit more often when you're actually tanking though. As an Off-tank, you probably won't even miss the last point in AD. Unfortunately, it looks like you need the other 4 to get down the tree.

[Relamun]

I just ran two tests on Training Dummies and what I found pretty much went right along with what you said theckhd.
Ah well, in my head it seemed like a good idea :)

[Funtodin]

I don't see the point here as dual specs will be available for 3.1 and you can just switch to ret anytime, or did they change how it works again?

[Gamingdevil]

It's about the TPS increase and some people actually like doing damage while tanking. Any extra damage contributes to a shorter fight, contributes to the chances of you seeing the end of it.