1/2 Spiritual attunement: Viable?

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Postby Laz » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:00 am

Ah that must be what it is.
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:11 am

Lore wrote:I'm actually gonna try skipping it entirely and seeing how well DP+Sanc keeps me going.

Aura of Despair will probably shatter my dreams though =(


I tested DP on the target dummy, so obviously no Sanctuary. I was oom in 36 seconds.
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:00 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Lore wrote:I'm actually gonna try skipping it entirely and seeing how well DP+Sanc keeps me going.

Aura of Despair will probably shatter my dreams though =(


I tested DP on the target dummy, so obviously no Sanctuary. I was oom in 36 seconds.


DP is nice, but by no means allows us to maintain a full threat rotation.

If, we use DP in combination with Sealing/Judging Wisdom, we can keep up a pretty solid DPS rotation...but not a full threat rotation, as you are not using SoV and cannot consecrate every cycle.

I see DP as a tool that gives prot paladins more viability for OT/PvP and also fills a weakness for us on MT duty on wimpy or slow hitting bosses where we were sometimes forced to seal/judge wisdom to keep mana up (Loatheb anyone?)

SA is a great talent, since as the encounters get more difficult you generally take more damage, which, assuming your getting heals, translates to a higher effective MP5 for us.

SA at 5% may be viable, but it probably wont be optimal.

A paladin tank with no mana is a tank that is not generating threat, so I consider SA to be a mandatory tanking talent.

Frankly, as I stated earlier, our issue is with being effectively forced to choose non-core talents in order to progress to higher tiers in the prot talent tree.
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Postby Wibu » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:55 pm

On Freya tonight I was pretty much able to maintain a full tps rotation and not go OOM on add duty... without sanctuary. And to my fault I was often forgetting to put DP up >.< but still was fine with 5% SA.
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Postby imapler » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:08 pm

To take, or not to take, points in SA
Same at elitistjerks: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37172-prot ... ost1157309

Mana lost per second:
Code: Select all
Skill  Mana Effective Cooldown  m/s
ShoR   263   6      43,83
HotR   263   6      43,83
HS   439   9      48,78
Cons   966   9      107,3
Judg   219   9      24,3

devided them by their cooldown and added them toghter

268,04 mana lost per second



Divine plea mana per second:
Code: Select all
Max mana raid buffed~ 7500
DP 25% over 15s = 1875 mana
125 mana per second back from DP


BoSanct Mana per second:
Code: Select all
Block cap = 102,4
Swing time = 2.4s
Miss chance = 9,34

I got my miss chance by using 5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962 = 9,34

BlockCap - Miss = BoSProc
Attacks/s * BosProc = BoSProc/S
Mana * ManaBackFromBoS * BoSProc/s

And with numbers:
102,4-9,34=93,06%
(1/2.4)*0,9306=0,38775
7000*0,38775*0,02=54,285

~54,285 mana per second back from BoSanct


Mana from Replenishment
Code: Select all
Mana * Replenishment = Mana back from Replenishment

7500*0,0025=18,75


Mana from JoW
Code: Select all
PPM / Minute = Proc per second
15/60=0,25

BaseMana * 2% = ManaReturned
4394*0,02=87,88

ManaReturned * PPS = mana back per second
87,88*0,25=21,97


How much DTPS do we need for +-0
Code: Select all
SA 5%
Spent 268,04
DP 125
BoSanct 54,285
Replenishment 18,75
JoW PPM 21,97

Spent - Gained = MissingMana/s
MissingMana/s / SA = DTPS

Without BoSanct
268,04-125=143,04
143,04/0,05=2860,8

With BoSanct
268,04-125-54,285=88,755
88,755/0,05=1775,1

With Replenishment, BoSanct and JoW
268,04-125-54,285-21,97-18,75=48,035
48,035/0,05=960,7


TL;DR

DTPS needed
Without BoSanct
2860,8

With BoSanct
1775,1

With BoSanct and Replenishment and JoW
960,7

Conclusion: There is no need to take more then 1 point in SA
Last edited by imapler on Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:47 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Postby Ilara » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:53 pm

imapler wrote:
TL;DR: There is no need to take more then 1 point in SA


fixt and ta.
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Postby Meloree » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:21 pm

Lore wrote:I'm actually gonna try skipping it entirely and seeing how well DP+Sanc keeps me going.

Aura of Despair will probably shatter my dreams though =(


It works, mostly. I tanked Mimiron, XT002, and Kologarn without any points in SA, since they removed it, and didn't bother to respec before raid tonight. Dry spells on BoSanc and JoW procs sometimes made me trade a consecration for an exorcism, but I mostly didn't have problems. One point should be tons, and that's probably where I'll end up.

Honestly, most of us have tanked Loatheb without perma-DP, and 300 or less incoming DPS, and it's pretty trivial to maintain most of a threat rotation there, trading 1/7 consecrations for DP, and 3/7 for Exorcism.

That said, I'm taking one point for sure, I'm undecided on if I feel like taking the second point.

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Postby Ossuary » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:40 am

After about 2 hours of Kologarn testing tonight, i can safely say that 1/2 SA kept me at max mana for the entire duration of the fight.
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Postby Gamingdevil » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:06 am

Meloree wrote:Honestly, most of us have tanked Loatheb without perma-DP, and 300 or less incoming DPS, and it's pretty trivial to maintain most of a threat rotation there, trading 1/7 consecrations for DP, and 3/7 for Exorcism.


I tanked him yesterday, full BV gear, I don't think I ever stopped my rotation except maybe (can't remember) for a DP or two.

@imapler: nice work, but I see you didn't count for avoidance in your incoming damage. You're assuming every swing the boss does connects for that amount of damage. At about 55% avoidance aginst a raid boss and 1.7k BV, that gives

(2900.4 + 1700)/0.44 = 10223.1 post-armor.

Assuming Ulduar bosses will be hitting harder, this might not be a problem, but it might be a bit of stretch.

PS: Correct me if my math is wrong, must still be sleeping; editted this three times now, but it should be correct now :P
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Postby imapler » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:28 am

Gamingdevil wrote:@imapler: nice work, but I see you didn't count for avoidance in your incoming damage. You're assuming every swing the boss does connects for that amount of damage. At about 60% avoidance aginst a raid boss and 1.7k BV, that gives

(2900.4 + 1700)/0.40 = 11501 post-armor.

Assuming Ulduar bosses will be hitting harder, this might not be a problem, but it might be a bit of stretch.

PS: Correct me if my math is wrong, must still be sleeping; editted this three times now, but it should be correct now :P


i just added that for easy comparison, the main number you want to look at is the dps that the boss needs to do, thats something i cba calcing on but would be easier to just pull from a wws or something

and as i stated before i have no idea what bosses do in dps, so if someone knows, pleas fill me in

With BoSanct
1997,9

Or without BoSanct
2483,6

With Replenishment, BoSanct
1647,9

With Replenishment, BoSanct and JoW
1208,5
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Postby trellian » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:38 am

Actually you should reform it as DTPS (damage taken per second).
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Postby imapler » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:50 am

updated with some corrections from EJ and here
remover the damaged per swing and replaced it with DTPS
changed mana pool from 7k to 7.5k, mana spent due to not have cost reducing talents in 3.1

how with the new numbers its even easier then before, down with abut 300 DTPS needed
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Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:35 am

imapler wrote:how with the new numbers its even easier then before, down with abut 300 DTPS needed

Benediction can also provide roughly 5.36 mana/second per talent point, using the numbers in your post. Unless that's already included in those numbers.
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Postby DanimalEQ » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:21 pm

theckhd wrote:
imapler wrote:how with the new numbers its even easier then before, down with abut 300 DTPS needed

Benediction can also provide roughly 5.36 mana/second per talent point, using the numbers in your post. Unless that's already included in those numbers.


While this could be true, it seems silly to spend 5 points, to save 2.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:22 pm

DanimalEQ wrote:
theckhd wrote:
imapler wrote:how with the new numbers its even easier then before, down with abut 300 DTPS needed

Benediction can also provide roughly 5.36 mana/second per talent point, using the numbers in your post. Unless that's already included in those numbers.


While this could be true, it seems silly to spend 5 points, to save 2.
That's not what he's recommending. If you are going to try to get from tier 2 ret to tier 3, you have a choice of where to put talent points, and Benediction is among them.
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