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[10] kel thuzad ice block on OT

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Postby SellassieTanks » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:59 pm

Just curious...Is this epeen related BS.

Or a raid of hat rouges?


But honestly...has somebody done the numbers to see if this is even feasible? or could this be slightly exaggerated?
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Postby Salamandra » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:53 pm

Malthrax wrote:
Salamandra wrote:Yeah, I just pulled Rivendare with Avengers Shield + Exorcism, then popped Avenging Wrath and tanked Thane as normal with Rivendare hitting me as well, and we used heroism immediately. Thane died ~25 seconds after I pulled. Rivendare died ~45 seconds after I pulled.

Well, I guess... 1 tank, 1 healer, 8 DPS geared to the 9's in Naxx-25 gear could conceivable hit and sustain 31k raid DPS to drop Thane in 25 seconds.

Oh wait.. who's tanking the other two? I guess if you didn't need to be healed at all with both Thane and Rivendare beating on you, you could send the healer and 1 DPS to the back to deal with them.

And then, after Heroism fades, those 7 DPS can easily step it up to 40k DPS to kill Rivendare in 20 seconds.


It was 2 healers, 1 tank, 7 dps. I did have a healer on me, but given that Divine Protection and Lay on Hands exist, he was dpsing a little. 6 dps, 1 tank and 1 partially dpsing healer can easily do 31k dps with heroism given that 5 of the dps are casters. Also Rivendare isn't at full health when Thane dies, anyway. Also Heroism lasts longer than 25 seconds.

Also my numbers were more guesses than exact. I've looked at the parse of it, Thane actually took 32 seconds after I pulled and Rivendare died 20 seconds after Thane. I must have taken 2 Thane marks, I guess... if they apply the first one 15 seconds after pulling.

Edit: Actually, it says I only gained one Mark of Korth'azz, guess they use it 15 seconds after they get in place... or something.

http://wowwebstats.com/rdtfh1kqd5wti?s=365318-372945
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Postby Tiatix » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:44 pm



So ... I browsed around through this and your guild on armory. How does an absolute slaughter by a fully-geared 25-man raiding guild of 10-man Naxx help a 10-man guild work on its progression kill(s)?

Your advice simply isn't valuable in any way to a guild that is working towards its first KT kill. It's just boasting and stroking on your part, right?
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Postby theothersteve7 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:00 pm

I had a very frustrating first 25KT a couple days ago. BOTH me and the other OT got ice blocked FIVE RUNS IN A ROW. Sometimes multiple times when we received battle rezzes. I wish I was making this up. There were a couple times where something else caused us to die; at one point KT iceblocked the MT immediately following his aggro wipe, which was pretty fancy. Or the time when two healers got iceblocked. Frankly I find the entire fight way too RNG.

It did make one shotting him the next night much more satisfying though. Particularly when the axe dropped.

I personally tanked KT with adds on our progression kill on 10-man. If you have the best gear possible from heroics you already outgear Nax10.
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Postby Zoltar » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:44 pm

Hmmmm, the MT should not be getting ice blocked. They can get ice blocked if the melee are standing too close and they chain ice block them or if they are surpassed on threat but that is all. If your melee caused it they need to spread out more effectively.

Being iceblocked as an OT is a total pain, I agree. All comes down to luck though. Very little you can do to prevent it.
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Use Lay of Hands

Postby Trixia » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:31 am

Get better healers... Or help them, you're a paladin still. Use all your tools.

Seriously...

If your healers are letting your OT's die during an ice block, and one of them is a Holy Pally, there is a problem. If you don't have any Holy Pallies in your raid, it's your responsibility to not let the OT die.

Lay of Hands is your friend. And the Holy Pally should be using this on your OT to make sure they live thru the Ice Block. LoHands + Holy Shock is more than enough to keep an OT up. Not to mention there is a 2nd healer healing as well. And in my expierence, unless you are REALLY unlucky... The OT will rarely ever get Ice-Blocked more than once in the time it takes for KT to go from 40%-0%.

If your the only paladin in your raid, you should be MTing KT, and the Non-Pally should be OTing the adds. Make sure you have a Lay of Hands mouse-over macro. Make sure your OT is in range of your LoHands. If your OT gets Ice-Blocked, it's your job to toss a LoHands on him. Yes you only have a few seconds to do this in... But if your so focused on spamming your 696969 rotation, and not looking out for your raid, your not playing at 100%.

We had this same problem in our raids when we first started doing KT. I didn't have LoH setup as a mouseover, as I rarely if ever needed to use LoH when I was healing. And as a result, our OT's were dying. So i took 5 seconds to make a LoHands mouseover, and we never had a problem again.

This works for 25m KT as well. No reason for OT's to die to Ice Blocks.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:41 am

Zoltar wrote:Hmmmm, the MT should not be getting ice blocked.


He mentioned it was after a MC, which is pretty awful RNG.
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Postby Belloc » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:44 am

Tiatix wrote:


So ... I browsed around through this and your guild on armory. How does an absolute slaughter by a fully-geared 25-man raiding guild of 10-man Naxx help a 10-man guild work on its progression kill(s)?

Your advice simply isn't valuable in any way to a guild that is working towards its first KT kill. It's just boasting and stroking on your part, right?

His comments on 4H don't help, but that doesn't change the fact that solo-tanking KT is a good idea. If you have heroic/naxx gear, you're geared enough to solo-tank KT.
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Postby Trixia » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:19 pm

Belloc wrote:
Tiatix wrote:


So ... I browsed around through this and your guild on armory. How does an absolute slaughter by a fully-geared 25-man raiding guild of 10-man Naxx help a 10-man guild work on its progression kill(s)?

Your advice simply isn't valuable in any way to a guild that is working towards its first KT kill. It's just boasting and stroking on your part, right?

His comments on 4H don't help, but that doesn't change the fact that solo-tanking KT is a good idea. If you have heroic/naxx gear, you're geared enough to solo-tank KT.


OTing the adds is better imo... Dont have to worry about Void zones hiding under the adds and such.

Were geared in mostly 25m gear, and we still OT the adds. Just manage the ice block on the OT properly and it really isn't an issue. Especially during a progression kill thats going to be a lot longer than with DPS geared in 25m DPS gear. And it gives our OT something to do.

On our first KT10 kills, Good DPS in our raids was doing like 2k-2.5k DPS that was like 1 person, maybe 2 if both good DPS logged on. And most were falling in the 1500-2k range with even 1-2 doing 1k-1500 sometimes. So it's not like KT was falling over quickly. It was a long fight. We even had fights where we had to battle rez the OT because he died to Ice Block (when we were first learning how to deal with it), and our feral DPS bear tanked the adds for a hot second while the OT got rezed, buffed and topped off.

It's really not reasonable to stack the adds on the MT and have him tank KT with low DPS when it's an actual 10m Progression kill, with little to no 10man gear, with a lot of the raid in blues/heroics/some Naxx10.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:24 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Zoltar wrote:Hmmmm, the MT should not be getting ice blocked.


He mentioned it was after a MC, which is pretty awful RNG.


Wow, yeah. I hate that part of the fight... they're taking that out, right?
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Postby Trixia » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:32 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
Zoltar wrote:Hmmmm, the MT should not be getting ice blocked.


He mentioned it was after a MC, which is pretty awful RNG.


Wow, yeah. I hate that part of the fight... they're taking that out, right?


KT will no longer mem blur his threat in the next patch, so yeh, you wont have to every worry about getting a bad RNG roll right after KT drops threat, and Ice Blocks the MT lol.
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Postby Salamandra » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:34 pm

Tiatix wrote:Your advice simply isn't valuable in any way to a guild that is working towards its first KT kill. It's just boasting and stroking on your part, right?


I never said it was, was just replying to...

Zoltar wrote:How do you do 4H? Or Gluth?


And then replied to replies to mine.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:24 pm

[10] We use an OT, take 3 healers, and make sure an external CD is available if OT gets Ice Blocked. This tactic has got 25 people in-guild Undying (which is pretty much everyone interested in 10-man achievements).

[25] Two OTs. Each OT picks up two, then we park all four on top of each other while being more than 10 yards apart:
Code: Select all
       (1)(3)   OT2
OT1    (2)(4)


Both OTs generate threat on all four mobs via AE threat effects, cleave, etc.

If an OT gets blocked, other OT taunts at least one & blows a CD, healers spam both OTs. Also covers you if an OT dies (There was a void zone under that mob? Damn!) as the two mobs will just switch to secondary target, which will be other OT.
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Postby vegardhv » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:00 am

I didn't see it mentioned (although it might have been), but interrupting the annoying ice bolts really helps on this fight :p
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Postby Belloc » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:33 am

Trixia wrote:
Belloc wrote:
Tiatix wrote:


So ... I browsed around through this and your guild on armory. How does an absolute slaughter by a fully-geared 25-man raiding guild of 10-man Naxx help a 10-man guild work on its progression kill(s)?

Your advice simply isn't valuable in any way to a guild that is working towards its first KT kill. It's just boasting and stroking on your part, right?

His comments on 4H don't help, but that doesn't change the fact that solo-tanking KT is a good idea. If you have heroic/naxx gear, you're geared enough to solo-tank KT.


OTing the adds is better imo... Dont have to worry about Void zones hiding under the adds and such.

Were geared in mostly 25m gear, and we still OT the adds. Just manage the ice block on the OT properly and it really isn't an issue. Especially during a progression kill thats going to be a lot longer than with DPS geared in 25m DPS gear. And it gives our OT something to do.

On our first KT10 kills, Good DPS in our raids was doing like 2k-2.5k DPS that was like 1 person, maybe 2 if both good DPS logged on. And most were falling in the 1500-2k range with even 1-2 doing 1k-1500 sometimes. So it's not like KT was falling over quickly. It was a long fight. We even had fights where we had to battle rez the OT because he died to Ice Block (when we were first learning how to deal with it), and our feral DPS bear tanked the adds for a hot second while the OT got rezed, buffed and topped off.

It's really not reasonable to stack the adds on the MT and have him tank KT with low DPS when it's an actual 10m Progression kill, with little to no 10man gear, with a lot of the raid in blues/heroics/some Naxx10.

If you have the DPS to get to Kel'Thuzad, you have the DPS to kill him in a reasonable length of time.

Also, not having an OT frees up spot for another DPS, which greatly reduces the length of the fight.

Finally, void zones should never be an issue. What else do you have to pay attention to on that fight? You can afford to be staring at your feet the whole time. Hell, on 25 man, I spent the entire fight watching out for void zones, interrupting frost bolts (with exorcism), and tanking 2-4 adds once they spawn. This is an easy fight for a tank.

I'm not saying that having an OT for the adds is a bad idea, so don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that having the MT tank the adds is a good idea.
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