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[10] Sartharion +1

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Postby righteouspms » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:42 am

Rather than making a new thread I just thought I would post on here and hope for some answers. My group of guys (can't say guild because we don't do 25-mans with the guild anymore) did no drakes with way to much ease on our first attempt. So this week we decided to try with 1 drake up to see what is like. From what I read on this site, it seemed Tenebron was the one to leave up when attempting this first time. However, we quickly got overrun with to many lava blazes and whelps up as the DK that I run with wasn't able to keep the drake, whelps, and lava blazes all undercontrol. Keep in mind that the only members of the group that are guaranteed to be there every week are a holy paladin, rogue, the DK, and myself.

My questions are as follows:

Are the tanks undergeared?
Myself (ignore the crappy spec as I kind of fell asleep during respeccing but it seems to work well enough for heroics) and the DK

How do we deal with both the lava blazes and the whelps? The DK could gather up the whelps easily enough but was having trouble getting the lava blazes and the whelps and if he did get the whelps and lava blazes all together it was to much as the whelps would take away his armor and then he got gibbed with the drake on him as well. When we switched, I had problems rounding them all up as I had to move the drake to the portal which was a pain and then try to use taunt to grab the single target lava blazes. It almost seems like we needed another tank or at least a feral druid or dk in dps gear to grab the lava blazes and tank them out of lava waves.

Here is the diagram we used for positioning as I think I found it for 3-drakes and thought it would be handy to learn the positioning for future fights way down the line:
Image


Let me go ahead and say that saying things like get a better DK tank or something won't be helpful as we are just a group of friends running together and not a guild trying for max progression. [/url]
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Postby Nemuria » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:40 am

We should go there tonight. We are quite undergeared too but the fight is too boring without drakes.
When he tried Tenebron alone, whelps were all over the place and we were able to heal everybody through. I guess it is the way to fight them AOE.
Sartharion hits for nothing, the lava ticks for 2K so there is large room for error and taking raid damage. Have the dps take some so the debuff doesn't stack the drake tank and he can focus on elementals.
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Postby amh » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:08 am

Righteouspms, are you doing it with two or three tanks?

If three, tank Tenebron where he lands, and just nuke him down. Add-tank keep an eye out on the portal, else run around to pick up mobs.

If two, try this:
Image
(entrance is at the bottom of the pic, forgot to add it)

Good:
Sarth-tank only has to take a few steps to get Sarth in position (he pulls from top left)
No range-issues when healing Sarth-tank during walls
Lots and lots and lots of space in the middle.
You get one more dps, which is handy to burn Tenebron down before you get a second set of whelps.

Bad:
Raid-members has to drop mobs off on you, since you don´t have as much freedom to turn around with Tenebron on you.
Takes some getting used to tanking both drake and adds. Whelps apply an armor-debuff, so the melee attacks start to hurt a bit.

This vid (posted by Kram) can give you some tips on 2-tanking it.
http://files.filefront.com/10+3dwmv/;13 ... einfo.html
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Postby amh » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:24 am

righteouspms wrote:Are the tanks undergeared?
Myself (ignore the crappy spec as I kind of fell asleep during respeccing but it seems to work well enough for heroics) and the DK



And your gear is fine. DK seems to be dps at the moment, so it´s hard to tell. Either way, this fight doesn´t require all that much gear-wise. If you´re tanking adds it´s really good to be as close to passive block-cap as possible (armor debuff -> block = no effect), but it´s definitely doable with your gear.

Depending on his gear-level, the DK might want to adapt a very heavy mitigation-spec to help the healers out (especially when you´re learning the fight). Glyphed Bone Armor, talented anti-magic zone, lichborne, y´know, the whole shebang. Whoever is tanking Sarth has all the time in the world to build threat while the rest kill Tenebron.

The big question is if your dps is good enough to get this over with before your healers go crazy / oom :)
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Postby Nalyn » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:28 am

vwest87 wrote:When ignoring the portals for Shadron the damage done to him is majorly reduced isn't it or am I thinking of a different drake?


You have the drakes, and their acolytes correct, however, as best I can tell from watching a few videos, when you add Shadron to the Sarth fight, his acolyte applies the damage reduction buff to Sartharion, NOT to any of the drakes, which means it's perfectly viable to ignore any/all of the portals, while you're taking out the drakes, least besides deciding to reset any of the debuffs they apply.

Also, next time we try Sarth+2, we'll be using the positioning righteous diagramed, as it seems to give your raid a much larger area to move around in, and should correct a lot of the issues people were having on our first go round.
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Postby kram » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:12 pm

Nalyn wrote:You have the drakes, and their acolytes correct, however, as best I can tell from watching a few videos, when you add Shadron to the Sarth fight, his acolyte applies the damage reduction buff to Sartharion, NOT to any of the drakes, which means it's perfectly viable to ignore any/all of the portals, while you're taking out the drakes, least besides deciding to reset any of the debuffs they apply.

Also, next time we try Sarth+2, we'll be using the positioning righteous diagramed, as it seems to give your raid a much larger area to move around in, and should correct a lot of the issues people were having on our first go round.


Portals for adds:
Tenebron = Whelps
Shadron = 50% Increased Fire damage to the raid
Vesperon = 75% Increased Breath damage, Sartharion immune to damage, Twilight Torment damage reflected on dps(~2.5k dmg, ~2sec cd).
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Postby discerpo » Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:41 pm

we did OS(10) +1 last week leaving up the one to the left (25% hp reduc)... and we failed a few times so we just did it norm.

This week however, we kept the whelp drake up and passed. It felt like it took a little long so our set up was me on Sarth our frost DK on drake and our usually MT pali on adds 2 heals 5 dps.

Alot of the stuff i read here is great (work has been slow, and the fact that i can even open the site at work is cool)

just wanted to say thanks for all the input
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Postby Doogiehowser » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:17 am

So let me see if I can do simple math. After 30 seconds, Tenebron will put up the portal and then 20 seconds after that, the eggs will hatch the whelps. On 10 man, he has ~976,000 hit points.

In order to bring him down before the second whelp batch, you have 99 seconds, correct?

So assuming you only have 5 dps and a tank on Tenebron, those 6 players need to do a combined dps of ~9,858. Say the tank does ~1400 or so, that leaves you with 1,691 dps for each DD.

Granted, you will have some lava adds here and there but that sounds pretty reasonable for most guilds and PUGs. Am I missing something here? Is it really that easy in terms of a gear check?
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:14 pm

Feels a little slow... from what I've seen, it looks like as soon as the portal goes up, you're going to get the whelps. Even if he dies after that point, and the portal disappears, the whelps show up at the end of the timer anyway. Has frustrated me more than once... :(
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Postby Trixia » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:17 pm

Os10+1 is fairly trivial leaving Tenebron up in my expierence.

We've done it successfully where we had such low DPS that literally we had like 4-5 portal spawns. It's really just about how well u can manage the adds. This was like 2 months ago the first time we tried leaving a drake up, before we were doing 25's on a regular basis.

Personally... I would only go with 2 tanks for Sarth+1 and Sarth+2 on 10man. 1 tank can easily handle tanking the drake, as well as handling picking up the whelps. If all your DPS are pushing 2500+, and you have BLust you'll get 2 portal spawns at most. Leaving ample time to kill Tenebron + Whelps/Adds before Vesperon joins the fight. Or if your just doing +1, GG.

Personally +1 is a waste of time, unless your DPS is so low, that your raid actually still need the drops from his normal loot table. In which case an extra item is worth it. But if your at the point where no one needs anything from his regular loot table, your better off working on Sarth+2 and doing Tenebron/Vesperon. Due to having such a long time between Drakes, it's basically like doing two Sarth+1 fights back to back. So it's not really that much more difficult. But the loot is substantially better.

Also, your raid will have to be doing more DPS than that. As because of the fire walls, and movement of the drake, your dps (especially melee) won't always be DPSing. It is doable with lower DPS, assuming 1 drake, you just have to deal with more whelps.

Doogiehowser wrote:So let me see if I can do simple math. After 30 seconds, Tenebron will put up the portal and then 20 seconds after that, the eggs will hatch the whelps. On 10 man, he has ~976,000 hit points.

In order to bring him down before the second whelp batch, you have 99 seconds, correct?

So assuming you only have 5 dps and a tank on Tenebron, those 6 players need to do a combined dps of ~9,858. Say the tank does ~1400 or so, that leaves you with 1,691 dps for each DD.

Granted, you will have some lava adds here and there but that sounds pretty reasonable for most guilds and PUGs. Am I missing something here? Is it really that easy in terms of a gear check?
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Re: [10] Sartharion +1

Postby warkrank » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:16 pm

My guild attempted this for the first time last night. After reading this thread, we left Tenebron up. We wiped 6 times, which kicked the fingerpointing on full blast. Here's my stats, http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malfurion&n=Daddydin . The other tank is geared slightly better than me but not by much. He and I are wondering if we are geared enough to tank this.

I think we lacked dps as Tenebron called 2 portals and was still at 60% health when we wiped. Myself and the other tank were ahead of 2 of the dps in the final meters also. The other tank is a DK and we swapped mt/ot for several attempts trying to find the right role for each of us.

The point of this is to see whether or not my fellow tanks feel I need additional gearing up before attempting this again.

Thanks all.
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Re: [10] Sartharion +1

Postby amh » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:09 pm

If neither tank-death and/or tank-threat was an issue, I don't see how they can point the finger at you here :/

Having Tenebron at 60% when the second set of whelps spawn is bad, really bad. The benchmark for progressing to additional drakes would be that Tenebron dies before the second set comes. Having all those pesky armor-reducing whelps running around is really bad for your health!

If you are doing this with two tanks instead of three, then yes, it's absolutely a dps-problem. Comparing dps to tanks on damage done isn't entirely fair however, since your aoe is down absolutely all the time. On one particularily add-filled run, I think I did 5k dps all over (25-man), so not entirely fair :)

I'd say your dpsers should be able to put out approximately 3k each, not counting aoe, to not consider themselves being carried.

Are you popping heroism/lust when Tenebron lands, btw? That's by far the most critical part of the fight.

- and I don't mean to pry, but what's that +6 stats-gem doing in your gear?
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Re: [10] Sartharion +1

Postby warkrank » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:46 am

that +6 gem was best available on AH that night and quite honestly I forgot about replacing it. Thank you for reminding me. We only had 1 dps over 2500 with a couple more between 2k and 2500 and 2 around 1700 or 1800. I did pop when he landed. I (and the other tank when he tried) were doing ok, until the 2nd portal worth of adds jumped on us with that armor debuff. It sounds like we might need to gear our dps up a bit more then.

Thanks for the reply !
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Re: [10] Sartharion +1

Postby Jasari » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:25 am

Make sure your DPS know what they're doing. I remember the first time we attempted +1 our DPS was wasting a lot of time because they weren't used to avoiding firewalls, void zones, etc and as a result were wasting more time than they needed to. Once everyone has a better feel for exactly where the lava walls go and where they should be standing at all time your DPS on Tenebron will improve substantially even without any new gear.
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