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[PvE] 37/0/34 takeoff....

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[PvE] 37/0/34 takeoff....

Postby CuCullin » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:03 am

It may not fit into ret or holy, but you can at least tag it with something! Thread title tagged. -Baelor

Been a lurker for a while now... first post :)

With dual-spec on the way, I've been thinking a bit about my second spec. For the most part, what I'd like to have is the quick-fill spec - I'm a tank, thats my job. However, not every raid boss requires two or three tanks, so sometimes, I'm just useless melee that can run out of mana (I'll swap out some gear, gets my dps up a little bit, since thats all I'm doing). Sometimes, I'll help out with heals here and there - generally useless for this, I can get of three holy light before OOM, but they are decent enough single-target heals to be helpful.

When I'm doing this, I am not going back to a trainer, respec, run back. I am simply swapping out gear, as we all have limited time to play. Since I should be able to switch to my second spec as long as I'm out of combat (according to what I've last read), I was looking for something semi dual-purpose. Neither would be particularly great, but it would be significantly better than just a gear swap.

So, I thought about thieving from the 37/0/34 build, dropping some of the more PVP oriented items, and focusing on the PVE. Here is what I've come up with (note: 3.1 calculator here):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9684

I get JotW, Holy Shock, and a few points into Guidance (and some of these talents, nicely enough, can play off each other in both trees).

So with prot as my main set, and being the equivalent of a gear swap midway through the run, I'm thinking this is a reasonable approach to being not quite so terrible as being prot in holy/ret gear.

Thoughts?
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Postby Sharlos » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:31 am

What exactly are you aiming for with this build? dps or healing or a mix of both? If both then i'd first point out that in situations where you don't need an extra tank you rarely need extra healing. Either you have brought enough healers or you havn't.
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Postby CuCullin » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:35 am

Sharlos wrote:What exactly are you aiming for with this build? dps or healing or a mix of both? If both then i'd first point out that in situations where you don't need an extra tank you rarely need extra healing. Either you have brought enough healers or you havn't.


Mix of both - and I don't know about that. Two (for naxx) has been enough, but a quick stroke of bad luck, and you're down a healer. If I'm not needed to tank, I basically will autoattack and ShoR, HotR my way to glory.... until someone goes down, gets stunned, whatever, and I fill in. Granted thats in-combat, but considering Ulduar is supposed to be a bigger test on healers...

It would probably be nice to have a half-decent spare mana pool as opposed to none.
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Re: [PvE] 37/0/34 takeoff....

Postby guillex » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:45 am

Baelor wrote:It may not fit into ret or holy, but you can at least tag it with something! Threat title tagged. -Baelor


You're just making it easy now, Baelor. ;)
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:46 am

I'm not one to half-ass stuff, so any build that tries to double-dip strikes me as poorly planned. That's my take on it.

That said, if you're a tank first and you want to be able to contribute as a healer and a DPS'er, I think your best option is to do the following:

Spec full-on prot tank as your first spec
Spec full-on holy healer as your second spec
Throw on ret gear with your sword and shield and cycle Judgement, ShR, and HotR when you aren't needed to tank or heal in an encounter, mixing in Exorcism and Consecration when you have the mana to spare

If you find yourself DPS'ing more than healing when you're not needed to tank, spec full-on ret as your second spec and then heal in your ret spec, since you'll have Sheath of Light to roll HoT's on people when you crit.

Don't try to spec for 2 roles with one talent build, it ends up a mess.
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Re: [PvE] 37/0/34 takeoff....

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:47 am

Guillex wrote:
Baelor wrote:It may not fit into ret or holy, but you can at least tag it with something! Threat title tagged. -Baelor


You're just making it easy now, Baelor. ;)

Damn you Guillex. Damn you to the seventh level of forum hell. That's right, I damned you to the Asylum, biatch.

I fixed it.
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Postby Igrado » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:56 am

@ OP - CuCullin

you might find my thoughts here interesting.

I find that with good Holy gear, i can heal Heroics in a RET spec (i buff myself with IMPMight for an extra 200SP instead of Wis/IMPwis ), so if you want to make your 2nd spec flexible for either off-role in raids, i say go for it.
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Postby Igrado » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:01 am

apologies, those are Holy/Prot builds, not Holy/Ret - my mistake.
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Postby CuCullin » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:05 am

Baelor wrote:I'm not one to half-ass stuff, so any build that tries to double-dip strikes me as poorly planned. That's my take on it.


I think that applies well now to the single spec/constant respec situation. Mixing is useless for a regular spec. But consider this scenario....

First boss, two tanks - boss has undead adds, so a paladin works nice for the OT. I'm on that.

Next boss comes up - single boss, no adds, only one tank needed. Random silence or some such makes healing potentially a problem. Some half-decent heals would be nice, something a little better than just a gear-swap would be better. Next boss - heals are fine, but lots of movement makes DPS a little low. A better-than-gear-swap dps increase would be nice here.

Again, nothing extraordinary going on for either side, neither is it really necessary. For most raids, the standard configuration works. For individual fights, it would be nice to have a bonus to either side. Sure, i can just gear swap right now - its what I do. That doesn't mean I can't tweak it a little bit.
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Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:18 am

CuCullin wrote:
Baelor wrote:I'm not one to half-ass stuff, so any build that tries to double-dip strikes me as poorly planned. That's my take on it.


I think that applies well now to the single spec/constant respec situation. Mixing is useless for a regular spec. But consider this scenario....

First boss, two tanks - boss has undead adds, so a paladin works nice for the OT. I'm on that.

Next boss comes up - single boss, no adds, only one tank needed. Random silence or some such makes healing potentially a problem. Some half-decent heals would be nice, something a little better than just a gear-swap would be better. Next boss - heals are fine, but lots of movement makes DPS a little low. A better-than-gear-swap dps increase would be nice here.

Again, nothing extraordinary going on for either side, neither is it really necessary. For most raids, the standard configuration works. For individual fights, it would be nice to have a bonus to either side. Sure, i can just gear swap right now - its what I do. That doesn't mean I can't tweak it a little bit.

If this were a true-to-life scenario, I'd be prot in prot gear for the first boss, ret in heal gear for the second boss, and ret in ret gear for the third boss.

"Better than gear swap" healing or DPS is relative. I contend that Sheath of Light or that prot talent that converts stamina into spell power makes your healing when not specced holy "better" than just your baseline heals as 0/0/0 in holy gear.

If you want to get more coverage of roles in your raid, have one of your DPS hybrids spec healer as their second spec and have you go ret as your second spec. That way, if there's a one tank encounter, you can swap to ret. If there's an extra healer needed, the other hybrid can swap to heals.

You don't have to be a one man show. A raid is composed of 10+ people. Utilize them.
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Postby CuCullin » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:36 am

Baelor wrote:"Better than gear swap" healing or DPS is relative. I contend that Sheath of Light or that prot talent that converts stamina into spell power makes your healing when not specced holy "better" than just your baseline heals as 0/0/0 in holy gear.


True, better than baseline - but Illumination replaces BoSanc, Holy Guidance plays way better off the healing gear, especially with some points into Divine Intellect, etc.

Baelor wrote:If you want to get more coverage of roles in your raid, have one of your DPS hybrids spec healer as their second spec and have you go ret as your second spec. That way, if there's a one tank encounter, you can swap to ret. If there's an extra healer needed, the other hybrid can swap to heals.


Problem is, I'm having a hard time thinking of another hybrid DPS. We've got mages, warlocks, and rogues, no help there. Healers are all hybrids, can't really take those away. There is one shammy that could switch to the healer role, but the shammy is an alt, and would take away one of our top DPS slots.

Its the raid config, unfortunately.

Baelor wrote:You don't have to be a one man show. A raid is composed of 10+ people. Utilize them.


But I enjoy being the pally of all trades ;)
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Postby Robbert » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:39 am

In BC I had good experiences running a holy/prot hybrid build for a while. It was great in Kara for an OT/Third healer depending on the fight, and when played right with a firm understanding of the deficits present in both roles it can work.

Having said that, with the introduction of dual spec in 3.1 I personally would not go down that path again. I'm already planning on going with a prot/ret dual spec...screw holy...healing on my Shammy is so much more fun!
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:03 am

CuCullin wrote:
Baelor wrote:If you want to get more coverage of roles in your raid, have one of your DPS hybrids spec healer as their second spec and have you go ret as your second spec.


Problem is, I'm having a hard time thinking of another hybrid DPS. We've got mages, warlocks, and rogues, no help there. Healers are all hybrids, can't really take those away.


You off-spec holy, one healer off-specs DPS.

If you need 1 less tank and 1 more DPS, you heal and he DPSes.
If you need 1 less tank and 1 more healer, you heal and he heals.

It isn't a complete solution (and not as good as Baelor's, in general) but it would solve those two issues.
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Postby CuCullin » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:15 pm

Kelaan wrote:You off-spec holy, one healer off-specs DPS.

If you need 1 less tank and 1 more DPS, you heal and he DPSes.
If you need 1 less tank and 1 more healer, you heal and he heals.

It isn't a complete solution (and not as good as Baelor's, in general) but it would solve those two issues.


Fair enough, though now I will be required to not totally suck at heals.....

As an aside, I just copied to the PTR, I'm going to play with Holy & Ret builds tonight, along with this mix, and see what tickles me.
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Postby Shoju » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:04 pm

Take Ret as your Second Build. I have tanked and healed heroics in ret spec more than adequately, and with the new T1 Prot healing ability, it will be even easier.
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