How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

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How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Marsha » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:23 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?

I'm interested in all points of view.
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Postby guillex » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:13 am

I realise that by asking a question about 3.1, you would think that it belongs in the Ulduar Strategies and Information forum.

Moving this to General.

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Postby Aubade » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:46 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1? Easily

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent? Yes for all

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how? Yes, collecting gear for 2nd set, alot of us already have glyphs ready.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1? I don't understand? do you mean in raids for specific fights? If so, probably less.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec? With DKP we'll be all main-spec> off spec.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others? uhh, DKP solves this.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill? Probably not without practice, but our guild invited people for a role, and they will stick to that role unless specifically asked otherwise.

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature? Eh, i don't think there's a best use, I can pick up all the "needed" talents while leaving 5-6 points left for personal flavor. i'm going prot/holy

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements? straight clear 1st week except maybe Yogg-saron hardmode for the title.

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long? we've been doing naxx since 1st week and haven't missed a clear so i assume so.

I'm interested in all points of view.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Barathorn » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:53 am

Marsha wrote:How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?


Those who have said they will be going dual spec have been geared up as much as possible without harming main specs loot allocation. They have been playing the spec they will be dual speccing in for PVE funded by the Guild Bank if required.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?


More, for PVP and for small guilds that don't have the flexibility larger guilds have.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec? How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?


Gear is offered for main spec first, then to dual spec then to off spec. We use a common sense system, if someone gets an upgrade they go to the back of the queue for the next upgrade they can use. This ensures uniform progression in theory across the Guild.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?


Yes and also some that can't but want to have a go outside of raids.

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?


No, unless you go Prot PVE and Prot PVP, otherwise 2 Prot specs aren't needed as far as I am concerned.

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?


Once we have finished current content we will start on the new content. We don't view it as a race. Achievements are nice, but can cause snobbery from my experiances. We will be going for them as and when we are able.

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?


Until it is clear, then we will relagate it to 1 night a week for Alts to gear up.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Passionario » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:22 am

Some of our players (myself included) already switch between specs and characters in the middle of a run. Dual Spec feature will just streamline this process.
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Postby sherck » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:27 am

I would agree that a DKP or Suicide Kings system seems about the best when it comes to progression content.

When dual-spec comes out, it will be difficult to judge a hybrid as "main spec" or "off-spec." Just because a Pally has been Ret for most of his time in the guild, but has built a great tanking set and is asked to switch back and forth 6 times during a Ulduar run, does not mean he is "main spec" Ret. He is "main spec" both.

THE BEST would be a guild where everyone involved is concerned about getting everyone geared so they all discuss and distribute in a "fair" manner that everyone agrees to. But those guilds are few and far between.

Beyond that, DKP or Suicide Kings seems best. If someone wants a piece for a spec they only play 25% of the time and wants to spend DKP on it or use their position in SK for it, go for it. As long as they are not hurting the raid because of it (hey, Dan has used his DKP on five Ret pieces over the past 2 weeks but his Spell Power is only 1800 on his Holy Set...and he came as a healer...), let people do what they want to do.

Raids on older content will have issues because most run a "Main Spec roll" and then "Off Spec roll" type system, especially PuGs, and that is going to be very frusterating. The Pally or Druid could easily say that just about every piece that drops is a "main spec" roll (Got Spell Power on it? Holy Set. Got Attack Power on it? Ret Set. Got Defense on it? Prot Set.). I don't know how raids are going to deal with a$$-hat, loot whores that say they can roll on everything just so they can DE it later and sell the shards.

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Postby Maddok » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:38 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?

Our loot system will take care this.

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?

Some discussion but not much yet.

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?

Most people have been picking up gear that is unwanted, as most of the core raid crew is only looking for one or two more items.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?

Depends, our raid core is in a state of flux at the moment.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?

Nope
How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?

Loot System

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?

Yes

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?

Probably not but nothing is finalized yet

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?

Clear
Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?

Probably in an impromptu fashion, no longer scheduled.
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Postby Tandors » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:55 am

my guild is giving out free glyphs for all of our second specs. Lootwise it is DKP for every item. If you really want the tiem, you pay full DKP for it. If it is only a minor upgrade or off spec, then it will be rolled off. the winner only has to pay about 1/5th to 1/10th of the full price for it. The catch is that if anyone is willing to pay full DKP for it, then it wont be rolled off.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Lightstrike » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:04 am

Marsha wrote:How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?

I'm interested in all points of view.


I just switched guilds, so fuck knows!

But essentially I think everyone is still going to have a main spec and an offspec.. and mainspec rolls/bids depending on the system you use will still outweigh offspec.

Although Blizz say bring the player, not the class.. there are ocasions where you still prefer different classes for certain roles.. I prefer to instance with a mage or warlock over a hunter or rogue. So I think that swapping might still occur, just not for min-maxing.. more for preference.. or simply choice?

Regarding classes that can use a lot more than others, its pretty simple to me.. as long as you keep mainspec > offspec mentality, you could also prioritise with armor type e.g. a rogue has more priority on leather over a retri pala.

Truly competent players will be able to play more than one spec, I think that to truly know your class you need to know at least the mechanics of its' other specs.

Two prot specs to me is a waste. Right now prot is quite rigid, and I don't really see that changing majorly with 3.1. I will be having an offspec in a different tree for pve.

I think we'll probably go for a clear before achievements. I think it's best to get an overall knowledge and improve skill level by variation than just getting stuck trying the harder stuff at the beginning.

I believe Naxx is still a good place to learn your trade, all instances for relevant level can train you up without you realising it, people who say they are too good for naxx are lying.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:14 am

There hasn't been a whole lot of discussion amongst the guild members, since I made it clear what my plans were for Dual Spec early on. I already have players respec back and forth between tanking/healing/DPS roles for certain instances, based on who we have available each night and what's optimum for the fight we're doing. So many are already skilled in multiple roles, and already have a stack of glyphs for each spec in the bank.

They're free to do whatever they like with their 2nd spec, but many will be choosing two PvE specs to help cut down on respec costs. In general though, everyone will have a defined "main spec" that reflects the role they play most often.

As far as invites go, it'll be pretty much the same as usual - I build the raid based on class composition and raid synergy already, asking people to respec as necessary. Dual Spec will just give me the ability to modify this on-the-fly during the raid a lot more easily. I rarely ask people to respec mid-instance, but it has happened before. I suspect that after 3.1, I'll be doing this regularly between fights, especially for fights that need fewer tanks or healers, for example.

Loot-wise, we use a Loot Council system, so the other officers and I decide who gets each item. So again, not much of a change, since we'll still be doing that. We've already outfitted the people who swap specs often with full gear sets for each spec, so we'll just continue to do that, and prioritize people who swap often. But in general, we'd give an item to a "main spec" before an "off spec," unless there are special circumstances.

Progression-wise, the first week will probably just be a full clear on easy-mode to get everyone comfortable with the instance and the boss mechanics. We'll probably start diving into the hard-mode achievements on week 2, starting with the ones that are less gear-dependent.

I don't plan on continuing most of the current content - once Ulduar is out we will probably drop Naxx and Malygos, though we may continue to do OS3D weekly for Twilight Drakes, since there are still people who want one.

As far as my own dual-spec, I'm undecided. I'd like to go prot/ret, because it lets me switch roles for fights that don't require as many tanks. In all honesty though, I haven't had the chance to spec ret since 3.0, because out of all the tanks it seems I'm the one that likes tanking the most, so I've always let the warriors or druids switch to DPS for fights where fewer tanks are needed (Malygos, for example). As a result, I also tend to give them the off-spec gear first, so it becomes a self-reinforcing situation.

I'd hesitate to say there's a good answer for the "best use" of dual-spec - the optimum "use" as far as PvE goes could be considered being able to switch roles from tanking to dps or healing, so that you can min-max fight to fight without the delays involved in hearthing/respeccing/reglyphing/etc. However, in a situation like mine, where I may go through all of Ulduar, including the hard modes, without ever respeccing (which is exactly what's happened with Naxx/Malygos/OS), the ret spec would be literally useless, so a 2nd prot spec might be a better investment if there are fights that slight spec variations would be helpful on (i.e. all-out threat vs utility builds).

I'll still probably go prot/ret just so I can swap for fun/pvp/heroics though, since I doubt any of the Ulduar fights will require that degree of min-maxing.
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Postby Tunnis » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:18 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?
Everyone have a main spec and they will be invited for that spec uness an ofspec is needed. Main spec will allways have prio on loot. ATM it seems like many second specs will be for pvp so don't think we have much to worry about, in our guild.

Dual Spec opens up lots of possibilities, so I'd like to find out what other guilds are planing to do. I realize many readers here don't make decisions on invites and loot, but have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?
Just some small talk about it.

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?
By getting gear for their second spec.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?
Don't think anyone has been talking about swapping class atm.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?
That is our loot rule :) Beening in a small guild have made us pretty good friends (going for irl guild meet in a few weeks *yay* ) so we dont need any dkp or something like that, we use common sence.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?
Courtesy and common sence.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?
With a bit of practise we will do fine.

I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?
In a small guild like mine it wouldn't be that good, but we have said that the ofspec can be what ever you want. Think most ppl are going for pvp as ofspec.

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?
In a casual guild, doing 10man, just gonna take it slow and easy no hurries the game will still be there tomorrow.

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long? Yeah untill we clear it. Still have malygos and sartharion with drakes left.
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Postby fafhrd » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:26 am

I don't think it'll change anything wrt invites/looting. Everyone still has a clearly defined role. Currently a lot of people (one of our feral druids for instance), a couple resto shamans and obviously our DPS warriors/DKs still do multiple roles, and this means they end up respeccing several times a week. They still only loot items for their primary roles when new content is up, but there's seriously so much loot around these days that this hasn't even been an issue - everyone ends up getting loot for every role.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Rehlachs- » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:30 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?
invite: main specc
loot: main > second

have you seen any discussion on it in your guild forums or on your vent?
yes.

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?
getting gear, enchanting their second gear, buying glyphs, and so on.

Will you see more or less swapping of classes in 3.1?
way more swapping.
f.e. rogues switching between their speccs for different occasions, f.e. enhancer shamans having a specc with full support and a specc without/less supprt, and so on. not every player will go that pve/pvp thing.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?
yes.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?
common sense.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?
yes.


I've noticed a number have posted they plan to set up two different Prot specs. Do you think this is the best use of this new feature?

no.

Will your guild be going for a straight clear, or going for achievements?
1 or 2 straight clears, going for achievements afterward

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?
no.
Last edited by Rehlachs- on Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jasari » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:31 am

I'm in a small guild and people have to respec a lot currently to fill in whatever roll is needed. We have a druid and two priests who are going to really enjoy saving 200-300g per week on respec/glyphs. I have a full PvE holy set and was thinking about making holy my 2nd spec but since we never seem to be short on healers, and tend to be short on tanks, I'll probably just have a PvP ret spec as my 2nd for the time being.

Loot, etc will continue to remain the same. Main spec > off spec. In the case of people who come equal amount of time as heals/dps, they'd get off spec priority over people who rarely come on their off spec. Again this is how we already do things all that's changing is the cost.
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Re: How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot

Postby Dimitry » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:07 am

How will your Guild handle Dual Spec, Invites & Loot in 3.1?

My guild is small, we team up with another guild for 25s. For the 25s we have just instituted a loot system (Floor Log Rap) and that'll take care of dual spec looties. For the 10s, we just do a "who needs it".

Have your guild members been preparing for this change? If so how?

I doubt it. Most of the guild are slackers.

Will your guild essentially resort to pug rules on loot? e.g. Mains>Off Spec?

That's basically how we do our 10s.

How do you keep loot fair with classes that can use a lot more than others?

The 10s have the "don't be an asshat" rule, the 25s have points.

Do you regularly run with competent Players capable of playing a 2nd spec with skill?

I'd say < 30% of them have the skill. There's about a 20% factor that haven't learned "Don't stand in the goddamned fire"

Will you continue to run current content and if so for how long?

Since we haven't cleared everything, yes. (The 25 was just recently established on a permanent basis) I'm actually getting rather frustrated with raiding right now due to the lack of progress in the guild run and the 25. Don't stand in the goddamned fire is apparently hard for some folks.

I'm not kidding. We JUST now instituted performance/gear minimums for the guild 10s. I shit you not, we had a rogue doing 800 dps in naxx.
Last edited by Dimitry on Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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