[25] patchwerk, how to heal?

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[25] patchwerk, how to heal?

Postby daemonym » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:07 am

so the last few nights been in a naxx 25 gorup, pug obviously, and we can't get passed patchwerk. the tank are well geared, the dps was all 2k-3k+ and the healers were at about 1800 sp+ (decent crit and haste). but the tanks kept on dying and obviously causing many wipes. so i was wondering if there was more to healing there than wtfspam greater heal or holy light or what have you. of the 3 tanks, the lowest was 33k after buffs, the highest was over 37k.

so is there a timing rhythm you need to find or what? seems sort of a waste of a raid to just let it go unfinished come reset (2 full wings left).

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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:40 am

when are your tanks dying? right after the pull or in the middle of the fight?
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Postby daemonym » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:50 am

Rehlachs- wrote:when are your tanks dying? right after the pull or in the middle of the fight?


middle of the fight, only once at the pull (obvious what the problem was there).
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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:10 am

your offtanks will die, if they fail to avoid two hits in a row without getting enough heal. in order to get 2 hits in a row, the first offtank (in other words: the dying one) has to have more hp left than the other offtank - therefore, the second offtank got a hit some seconds ago before the first tank was hit.

so, the second offtank stood there 2+ sec without getting heals .. I would suggest your healers to wake up.

there are some tricks, thought it's pretty obvious stuff, such as putting beacon on the other offtank. if those healers can't handle it, they probably shouldn't have been there in the first place.
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Postby daemonym » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:16 am

Rehlachs- wrote:your offtanks will die, if they fail to avoid two hits in a row without getting enough heal. in order to get 2 hits in a row, the first offtank has to have more hp left than the other offtank - therefore, the second offtank got a hit some seconds ago before the first tank was hit.

so, the second offtank stood there 2+ sec without getting heals .. I would suggest your healers to wake up.

there are some tricks, thought it's pretty obvious stuff, such as putting beacon on the other offtank. if those healers can't handle it, they probably shouldn't have been there in the first place.


ya i was getting smacked around for 22k and change each hit. but could it just be down to bad timing, considering your average big heal is 2.5 seconds, and it takes a hateful at least 2 seconds to hit you with the second (killing) blow. so assuming a bit of haste and zero latency, that should technically be enough time to chain cast them right? but obviously there will always be some form of delay small or not, could it be that the healers just didn't have enough haste on their gear? i think it was around 230ish. also there were 2 pallys with a beacon on each of the OT's. then 2 priests and 2 druids.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:31 am

Holy Light != 2.5sec cast time
we have Light's Grace, Infusion of Light, JotP, WoA totem,yadayadayada.
I suppose without that much spell haste from your gear you should end up with a 1.6-1.7 cast time of HL. on the other hand, you are perfectly fine with spamming FoL when you have 2 paladins on their offtank, sharing their beacon.
they still need help to top off the tanks, but that setup alone prevents the said 'critical situation' of two tanks below ~22k hp.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:45 am

Paladin MT (or weakest tank if you have no pally).

Bear primary OT (or best geared tank)
Secondary OT.

Healers are pre-assigned to one of these tanks and just WTFSPAM one heal for entire fight.

No heals are assigned to raid - there is no raid damage.

For 10-man, examples:

• Paladin spams Holy Light on primary OT with bacon on MT
• Shaman would CH through MT (or primary OT if OT healer is weak)
• Druid rolls blooms on all three tanks.
• Priest would be assigned to one tank and spam GH. Probably keeps renew going as well.

10-man, take three healers.

25-man, take 6, put 2 healers on each tank.

Primary OT will take most damage. Then MT, then secondary OT.

Healers never switch targets, never cancel-cast, etc. They select their target, then go:
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2

For 4-5 minutes.
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Postby daemonym » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:05 am

Knaughty wrote:Paladin MT (or weakest tank if you have no pally).

Bear primary OT (or best geared tank)
Secondary OT.

Healers are pre-assigned to one of these tanks and just WTFSPAM one heal for entire fight.

No heals are assigned to raid - there is no raid damage.

For 10-man, examples:

• Paladin spams Holy Light on primary OT with bacon on MT
• Shaman would CH through MT (or primary OT if OT healer is weak)
• Druid rolls blooms on all three tanks.
• Priest would be assigned to one tank and spam GH. Probably keeps renew going as well.


10-man, take three healers.

25-man, take 6, put 2 healers on each tank.

Primary OT will take most damage. Then MT, then secondary OT.


that's basically what was going on, not 100% on what the druids were up to though tbh. but it seems like the healers were mostly just not spam casting back to back. and as much as i'd love to mt the fight (jesus it's harder than hell to control my threat, especially on the pull) but i was a good hand better geared than our warrior mt (6k health and about 3-4% avoid more post buffs) and about even with the DK ot. whenever i OT the fight i tend to stand there casting HS and judgment and nothing else or i'll top off omen and get things complicated (i salv myself twice a fight just to stay number 2 on threat). also, the only time the MT died was on an 'oops' pull.

i bolded the parts i found particularly interesting. would you mind going a bit in depth with how chain heal is preferable and why a druid should focus on having full blooms up? for the paladins, i had them on both of the OT's as they were the strongest healers and traded bacon on each OT as well. also i'm going to guess that i slightly misunderstood the HS mechanic considering the second bolded part. i always thought it was BOTH off tanks that took the most damage.

i take it since the HS comes so often, it's something like this:

0.0 strike OT 1
OT 1 now has 5 health
1.0 strike hits OT 2
OT 2 now has 5 health
1.5 OT 1 gets healed to full
2.0 strike hits OT 1
OT 1 now has 5 health
2.5 OT 2 gets healed to full

(originally i thought it just hit both off tanks, not just an issue of speed vs. who has health)

also, i wonder if druids are at a mild disadvantage in this fight, do their hots and blooms 'tick' fast enough to go off in time to heal up before hateful #2 lands? granted this isn't the most complicated fight on the planet, just trying to understand how we were failing so hard with some well geared players. and FWIW, my armory has me in the gear i was tanking in. our last and best attempt i switched out the red bunny for the valor medal (used it with the crab on the pull, and on each cd afterward).

note: now that i'm thinking about it, i seem to remember some melee getting slammed before tanks started dying. simple case of ot 1 and 2 not getting healed fast enough to catch a strike so a melee got it because they had highest health?
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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:04 am

daemonym wrote:also, i wonder if druids are at a mild disadvantage in this fight, do their hots and blooms 'tick' fast enough to go off in time to heal up before hateful #2 lands? granted this isn't the most complicated fight on the planet, just trying to understand how we were failing so hard with some well geared players.


Lifebloom ticks once each second. therefore it's almost perfect to 'flatten' the damage spikes in this case.
it ticks at least once before the regarding offtank gets another hit.

note: now that i'm thinking about it, i seem to remember some melee getting slammed before tanks started dying. simple case of ot 1 and 2 not getting healed fast enough to catch a strike so a melee got it because they had highest health?


it's a part of the HS mechanism. It checks the top3 non MT-melees (right here I'm not sure if this checks still includes the MT or already excludes him as a valid target) in his threat list for the one with the highest current hp.

that means your offtanks have to generate threat on Patchwerk on his pull to be on the top of Patch's threat list. furthermore your melee DPS have to wait until the OT's are ahead on threat before they enter Patchwerk's melee range/start DPSing.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:16 am

First: 10 or 25? Assuming 25.

Take my healing advice with a grain of salt re druids - that's my best guess, but I'm very stale on druid healing.

Re "Chain Heal" - we usually have a powerful single target healer on each tank, OT1 > MT > OT2 priority. Shaman will CH through a tank, because 3 people are taking damage, and CH will jump to whichever tank isn't topped off.

As for dead melee? They're being thick. Melee DPS must wait until both MT and OT have solid threat. One Hateful each is usually enough. Waiting 5 seconds is a hell of a lot better than dying. One is -5 sec DPS... the other is -5 minutes. Non-tanks will usually be one-shot by hateful.

Hateful is primarily threat based. It always the higher health option of #2 or #3 on threat. Standing in ooze, etc, does not help. If you are melee DPS, and are 3rd on threat, you will die as soon as the primary OT isn't topped off.
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Postby Salamandra » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:28 am

Not that this is actually problematic because what causes the problem at all is also what makes it not a problem, but last time we did 25-man Patchwerk, the second hateful strike tank took 0 hatefuls because the druid tank was topped off so quickly. Probably every melee dps was above him in threat, but given that the tank didn't take hatefuls, the melee dps didn't either, thankfully.
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Postby guillex » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:00 am

Knaughty wrote:First: 10 or 25? Assuming 25.


As Knaughty has said, your topic title isn't conducive to knowing which group comp you have available.

Please modify your topic title, as per the announcement that says "READ HERE FIRST" in each of the 4 sub-forums here.

Please start naming your topics properly.
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Postby Panzerdin » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:51 am

I'll put this one out, since it hasn't been said. Don't bother HoTing on anybody, since the MT won't be taking any damage spikes and the OTs won't be getting any benefit from it. Your Druids may as well just spam HT, since HoTs aren't really doing anyone any good.
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Postby inthedrops » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:15 pm

Since you're struggling, I figured I'd suggest somethnig very helpful on this encounter even though it doesn't relate to your direct questions. The tanks can each eat an armor potion just before the pull, and then eat another one in the middle of the battle. Armor potions make a big difference for Patchwerk and they'll be up for most of the fight.
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Postby Panzerdin » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:23 pm

Potion Sickness much? It helps at the start, to get your healers in the swing of it, but it won't help long term, unless you can pull a 2-minute Patch on progression, which ain't gonna happen.

And now I come to think about it, they don't help much on HS anyway. Either you get killed by the first one, the second one, or the third one. It might shift you along one, but it won't help if your healers aren't sorted out.
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